(no subject)

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Just checking in to this mostly-dead community to say how much I appreciate everyone who's critical of Gwen Cooper! You're all super intelligent, sensible, rational thinkers. =)

Is anyone following the new Torchwood series from Big Finish? I'm enjoying it a lot; I especially look forward to Owen's and Rhys's episodes announced for the upcoming season. But I have skipped all Gwen-centric stories -- hope I didn't miss too much that pertains to the universe in general or the other characters...

Can't stand Gwen as a person (naturally), and worse yet how preposterously bad she is as a character. It's beyond all suspension of disbelief and all crazy alien crap that someone as ignorant and incompetent as Gwen, who's rude and dismissive literally towards everybody literally all the time can endear herself to anyone, evoke respect, and keep a high-class job and personal relationships.

The further the Torchwood went, the less believable got her continued presence on the team -- until we've all just sighed and coped.

Comments

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

True. An actual person with her odious traits would have been fired, killed, shipped to Siberia. But our Gwennie is the fav of RTD, so she just keeps on going. I sometimes think the writers hated her, and were able to throw in all her worst traits because RTD wasn't paying attention. I mean, the way she is written does not speak 'heart of TW' or 'good role model' or loveable character. If you like a character, you do not write them as a self-centered, selfish, self-important, lying, cheating, disrespectful, manipulative horrible human being, do you? I mean, she mind-raped her own boyfriend. And let's give the moron who doesn't even know who UNIT is the top job in TW while Jack is away. Let's make the newbie, who has zero experience, Jack's second. Really? REALLY? All these years, and it still hasn't stopped boggling my mind, and I have not learned to not hate her, nor will I ever. Of all the shows I've ever watched, and I've watched a lot of shows, she is the character I hate the most.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

What I wonder at is how consistently awful Gwen is written. Every single writer throws in a dose of trademark Gwen meanness -- like it's delineated as her signature cute (???) personality type by the show guidelines. Some of the writers focus on her less though. Or maybe they draw straws and the loser has to deal with Gwen-centric episodes. =)

Selfish, self-important, nasty, etc characters can be the most interesting and exciting, but there's got to be something redeemable, relatable, intriguing about them. It's not like the others on the Torchwood team are white and pure, but they're also multidimensional, with buried pasts and surprising emotions. I'd say the 10th Doctor is a lot like Gwen in his attitudes, but he's also a magic super-competent genius with PTSD, which rather gets him a pass. I'm struggling to think of anything like that for Gwen.

What makes Gwen's horridness stand out is how wonderful and personable the rest of the show is. She's like a giant dark stain on light fabrics. Ugh.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

Even in fanfiction, the stories where her role is minimized or eliminated altogether are less stressful to read. I enjoy the stories more without the constant irritation she provides. I have enough irritation in real life, thank you.
I agree about Ten. He is my least favorite Doctor, because he has many of the same traits as Gwen, but he does have some redeeming qualities thrown in. She does not. The worst part is, no matter how horrible or harmful her actions are, she always gets a pass. Always.. If she got slapped down everytime, and grew as a character, maybe I would hate her less. But this never happens.
Even Owen, who can be such an ass, has redeeming qualities, but not Gwen. I just want them to kill her off or wipe her memories or stick her in the looney bin, but noooo. She's Teflon, everything just slides right off, like it never happened. Jack is an ass and a moron as a leader, and Rhys has those 'true love' blinders welded on. It really ruined the show for me, and I cannot rewatch, because she makes me gag everytime I see her on screen, and the way Jack is with her is truly sickening.
Thank the gods for good fan fiction, the ones that see her as she is, and not as RTD's, well I would say wet dream except he's gay. Maybe he's bi and doesn't let it be known. I don't know. It disturbs me to get this angsty over a tv show, but there it is.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

The way Jack is with Gwen is sickening for how obviously, in-your-face forced their "sexual tension" is. It looks to me so completely fake and discordant that it's embarrassing to watch.

I've been rewatching some classic Torchwood lately, but I fast-forward a lot. (CoE and Miracle Whip I can't bring myself even to touch.)

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

I watch COE, and have regretted it ever since. No interest in watching Miracle Whip, and what I've seen about it on line sounds disgustin, especially Gwen's part in it. Thinks she's so special because she didn't die like the rest of the poor slobs? Special to RTD, maybe, but not to me.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

I've seen both when they came out, but never again. You made the correct choice to ignore that ignoble trashpile! CoE was a bloated pointless disgrace, and as for Miracle Whip, the only thing that got me through it was ranting about its every second with like-minded Torchwood fans. Smarter people have just avoided the whole mess. =)

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

The only scene I like in CoE is when Ianto talks to Rhiannon about Jack. The rest is rubbish.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking that! Rhiannon Davies is the one (the only) good thing to come out of the whole CoE.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

I agree. I liked Rhiannon a lot. Too bad we didn't get more of her and Ianto's back story and less... lot less... of Gwen. More Tosh would have been great, too. And less Gwen. Did I mention less Gwen? :)

[imarajones.livejournal.com]

Even now (february 2018) it seems in the audio Alien among us she goes (leave TW) with Rhys and ALIVE. I imagine that RTD knows that if she kills her most of the people will celebrate with a champagne bottle.

[bk_forever]

Gwen wasn't even competent as an ordinary PC. I shudder to think how many people's lives were put in danger by giving her a gun *rolls eyes*

She had no respect for anyone, yet thought she could be Torchwood's police liaison and went about it be being condescending and patronising towards her ex-colleagues. Sometimes I wonder if Jack only hired her because he figured they'd all be safer if he could keep a close eye on her.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

She's sure a good example of why police doesn't and shouldn't have guns! I rather hope in rl she'd have been sacked from the force during the first month.

Okay, so she got into "special ops" and lorded it over her "simple" police and civilian acquaintances, that's at least understandable if very unattractive. But she's just as condescending towards her new collegues, experts in their fields, and towards her new employer, someone vastly experienced in all things alien. Gwen never considers their professional opinions worth listening to. <-- This would have most reasonably gotten her killed asap, had she not been RTD's pet.

The common hypothesis is that Jack hired her out of a twisted bout of nostalgia for Rose Tyler. Her continued presence on team Torchwood is a complete mystery.

[bk_forever]

RTD loves the women he creates, but he has zero understanding of what makes for strong, likeable female characters. Gwen treats the man she supposedly loves like dirt, ignoring him when he's talking to her, being dismissive of his feelings, it's like she thinks Rhys is there for her convenience. Then she sleeps with Owen, then moons over Jack like she has some special right to him (and who kisses their boss they've known for only 2 days on the lips to say thank you anyway? That should have got her fired).

She has no respect for anyone, thinks she knows everything and doesn't need to be told, puts herself and what he wants above everything else... All the rest of the characters are willing to sacrifice their lives for the good of others but Gwen never would.

The only reason Gwen kept surviving all her stupid mistakes was because other people risked their own lives for her. She left a trail of dead bodies behind her, mostly innocent people. RTD wanted realism with Torchwood being dangerous and people dying, but he wasn't in the least realistic because he stated that nothing bad would ever happen to Gwen. You can't have it both ways. If he wanted realism them Gwen should have died in the first episode.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

If he wanted realism them Gwen should have died in the first episode.

Ain't that the truth!

Rhys poor Rhys. He's pretty much the ideal boyfriend, and Gwen marries him "because no one else will take her" - meaning Jack obviously. Not that she's above bragging about having a steady home life to her overworked collegues, like it makes her a better person to have Rhys. You're right, he's just a prop to her.

[bk_forever]

I love Rhys, but he deserves to have someone who truly appreciates and lives him. To Gwen he's just the cook and housekeeper,and part-time shag when she can't get anyone else interested.

I would have had a little respect for her if she'd resisted Owen despite the physical attraction. The whole sleeping with him because she couldn't tell Rhys about her job is such a crock. Thee were things about being a policewoman that she couldn't talk about, ongoing cases she was involved in for instance. All she had to do was tell Rhys she'd signed the Official Secrets Act (which she would have had to) and she couldn't talk about work. Then there would have been no need to lie to him. She lied out of habit, not out of necessity, and she slept with Owen because she wanted to. If she'd just needed someone to talk to about work, there were four people she worked with every day who she could have talked with, including Owen. Didn't mean she had to sleep with one.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Resisted Owen despite physical attraction? My impression was that she slept with Owen not for attraction but 'cause she couldn't get Jack interested. Making Oweninto a Jack-substitute, plus a prop in a make-Jack-jealous campaign. The series does make it clear that Gwen wanted Jack from the start.

Yeah, she was already lying to Rhys for no reason even before she joined Torchwood, then later her lies just got out of all proportion. Compulsive liar, that's our Gwen.

I love Rhys too, and it's very upsetting that he tends to come packaged with Gwen, and we always get to see her dismiss and disrespect him. I really look forward to the Rhys-centric Big Finish ep, and I hope Gwen's role will be minimal!

[bk_forever]

Everything about Gwen was badly thought-out. If she was going to be obsessed with Jack and sleeping with Owen, they should have made Gwen single. (Although having her obsessed with Jack was always going to be a mistake).

Yes, I think she would have jumped into bed with Jack if he'd given her the slightest hint of being interested, Owen was just there and available as a temporary fling, but she seemed to be upset that he wasn't interested anymore, even though she clearly had no idea he'd fallen for Diane. She wanted to have her cake and eat it, plus everyone else's too. Like she wanted what anyone else had. She must have known Tosh fancied Owen, but that didn't stop her.

She did always seem to be trying to make Jack jealous, but Jack's not really the jealous type even though I like writing him that way.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

But of course she was upset when Owen lost interest! How could he, when Gwen's so perfect and wonderful? She's always about only "me, me, me".

I wonder what her bumbling machinations looked like to Jack. Probably extremely juvenile.

[bk_forever]

She really did behave like a spoiled child, used to getting her own way in everything. I wonder if her parents ever told her 'No'. Doesn't seem likely since as far as I could tell, it was one of the words she didn't seem to know the meaning of.

[milady-dragon.livejournal.com]

I'mm following some of them. Mostly the Ianto-centric ones. "Broken" was one of the best stories ever, and if you haven't listened to it, you really should. "Fall to Earth" was also awesome.

I also quite liked "Outbreak", even though it did have Gwen in it. However, she didn't overpower things, and the second disc (it's a three disc set, FYI) is all about the Janto. Big Finish has done some really good work.

I flatly refuse to buy the Gwen ones, though. I just can't stand her. But then I think that's everyone here. You are all my peeps, and I love you all. :)

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Yes, "Broken" is great!!! So cool to get an official post-Cyberwoman story, and it's not even half-bad compared to fanfic! Quite in the same vein, in fact. Mmm. Of course, it's also got the bonus John and Gareth's performance. =)

I didn't much like "Fall to Earth", though it had its moments. My fave ep aside from "Broken" (and the Gwen-centric ones I didn't listen to) was probably "Uncanny Valley": loved the voice actor and the unanswered questions such an AI brought forth.

I listened to "Outbreak" too and was delightfully surprised at how little Gwen is had in it! =) I liked the third part, the resolution, best. Lots of Jack and Ianto being pro-active, separately and then together.

I sometimes wonder about the sales stats: how do Gwen's episodes sell, comparatively speaking? Though I wouldn't expect a huge dip; most of the audience, I imagine, just wants more Torchwood and is willing to suffer occasional Gwen for that. The disgust must run pretty strong to counteract fannish urge to collect all of the stories. =)

[sagrario martínez castro (from livejournal.com)]

I´ve read that the TW audios with best sales are Ianto / Janto stories (Ianto Jones and Jack Harkness & Ianto Jones stories). Well, people have good taste. And Big Finish have the best writers.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on this. I will not buy or even listen online to anything Gwen-centric. She makes my skin crawl. The show would have been so great if they'd killed her off instead of Suzie, or even with Suzie, and given more weight to Owen and Tosh, who had the potential to be fantastic characters in their own right. And of course, more Ianto and Janto would have been the bomb.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

And they could have had somebody fun join Torchwood instead, like PC Andy, or involve the excellent Detective Swanson more. Mickey and/or Martha would have been awesome too.

In fact, they could have kept Gwen on the series, but as an antagonist! She makes one hell of an unintentional baddie. Maybe she's an alien... You know that locket of Erebus: "the bad penny" which always turns up and brings bad luck? Gwen is the perfect personification.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

They blew every opportunity, it seems. Then killing everyone off so RTD could make it big in America. He's not my favorite person.

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

And he didn't make it big in America. I refused to watch Gwen and Jack.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

Oh, darn. Poor RTD. No, I won't watch anything of his, and I definitely won't watch Gwen and Jack. I'm currently rereading a series where Gwen is kind of a crazy baddie. A bit over the top here and there, but it is so satisfying to see her not just get away with everything. And Rhys gets to be happy. Not sure if I feel sorry for Rhys for how she treated him, or just think he's a complete moron for putting up with it. Love is blind, but Rhys is just stupid. Unfortunately, it is unfinished and has not been updated since last October (2016). It's Sleeping Dragons by Soledad. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9832294/1/Sleeping-Dragons-00-The-Unexpected-Rise-of-Director-Jones

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

That's great fic series!

But, Rhys is not stupid. Or he's only as stupid as all the other the characters who worship Gwen for no in-universe reason (against any in-universe reason, in fact).

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

There are some good fics where Rhys gets a brain, and so do the rest of them, but it is not canon. Not that I care about canon, because all canon did was screw with us.

Soledad fics (also has fic on LJ under "Wiseheart')

[breannarose1.livejournal.com]

Hi!
SHe's still writting but between Real Life and plot bunnies, she's been a bit busy to get back to this fic.
https:// www.fanfiction.net/u/173902/Soledad
So far she's:
- taken TW characters and had them replace corresponding characters in (2) Star Trek: Enterprise fics, except Owen. Dr Phlox was needed in the series so she kept him.
- - 1 has the Doctor saving Ianto after COE, bringing to a future for training as a Star Trek equivalent of a Time Agent. Ianto then goes back to the Enterprise and meets the descendants of the original TW team. Suzie's back in this
- - Suzie's also back in the Other version that's without the Doctor bringing Ianto back. In this one Gwen just suffered the consequences of her actions and is no longer a crew member.
- There's several Sherlock series, some just using the BBC Actors in a re-write of an Arthur Conan Doyle story, some are quasi-crossovers with Torchwood: one story has the Doctor using the Chameleon Arch and becoming Sherlock, Ianto (formerly of TW) is assigned by an Earth-bound Time Lord (Mycroft) to watch over Sherlock and John, too, when he gets brought in. ANother story has Ianto as Mycroft son (and Sherlock has yet to figure it out)

Just drop her a line to prompt her, remind her that there's still interest. She'll get there.

Re: Soledda fics

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

Busy writer! Wow! Thanks for this.

[tlen2.livejournal.com]

I couldn't bring myself to spend any more money on TW after COE. Since there are probably going royalties to RTD and they way he insulted us fans I just don't want to give him any more dime. I may buy the Jack and Ianto ones from a re-seller someday. I coulnd't agree more with all of you regarding Gwen. She is not only the most dislikable character on TV she also is the most unrealstic on.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Thankfully RTD has nothing to do with Big Finish! Creatively speaking at any rate, dk about royalties. And most of the audio stories are set before CoE, featuring the classic team or even Torchwood One. Most eps focus only on one-two familiar characters, so Gwen is easily avoidable when it's her turn. (Pity that also means skipping Gwen+Rhys, which is why I'm so glad Rhys gets a solo ep this spring.)

But yeah, if you're mainy into janto, then "Broken" (season 2, ep 5) is pretty much what you gotta look into so far. It's a very TV-canon reflective post-Cyberwoman story, going through to They Keep Killing Suzie, basically about how Jack and Ianto got together after all that. With some crazy alien stuff thrown in. =)

[tlen2.livejournal.com]

I know he hasn't written or produced those stories but Big Finish just can't go ahead and publish those audios without permission and those permissions usually come with a nice fee for the copyright holder. It is also common.,that the person who creates a show, who sets the atmosphare gets his/her share of anything which is based open said show. So no matter if RTD is the copyright holder or the BBC is I'm pretty sure anything what is legally based upon Torchwood and the new Doctor Who brings some more money into his pocket

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Well... there's always the HORRIBLE ILLEGAL TERRIBLE digital piracy. =)

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

Gasp. LOL

[imarajones.livejournal.com]

Ianto has now much more presence (and his audios are very good) than Gwen. Even we´ve got much more personal stories with Jack and Ianto.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love your icon. Well, I love Ianto. And Gareth. So there.

[imarajones.livejournal.com]

Thank you! It´s very easy make a good icon with Gareth. Love him too!

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

I just checked Outbreak, and it's 25 dollars American to download it. I don't think so, Tim.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

Here's this:
https://doctorwhowatch.com/2017/08/07/torchwood-season-5-5-reasons-why-big-finish-should-make-it/
All I see in the picture are stand-ins for Tosh, Owen and Ianto. No, no, no, and also, no.

[imarajones.livejournal.com]

I´ll wait the next stories (always with Ianto). This isn´t Torchwood, never, not with Gwen.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

It really isn't. Not watching a different show that just happens to have the same name,and definitely not with Gwen.