Exactly why do you dislike Gwen?

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

Some of you may know I'm a bit technically challenged when it comes to LiveJournal, so it was actually only a few days ago that I discovered the LJ poll icon![Poll #1814609]
I know you all want to tick all the boxes but, if the poll lets you do it, I'm asking for your top 3 answers! Hopefully we'll get to the top 'irritating Gwen trait'! I just had to try the poll, and this seemed a great way to do it!

Comments

[jsks.livejournal.com]

i would like to add,

lack of personal responsibility for mistakes
refusal to acknowledge how her actions harm others
refuses to accept the idea that she is ever wrong

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

Darn, I knew I'd missed out a lot of things. The poll only initially gave me 10 choices. But, I really think a regular poll on here would be fun; it could be attached to episode commentary (what was the most irritating 'Gwen activity' in this episode?)- I'd be happy to join in!
Interesting to see that with only 10 participants so far, we're a moralistic lot: self-righteousness and infidelity are at the top.
Ps Happy Birthday- I've been rushed off my feet, so sorry for not giving you Best Wishes before!

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

I couldn't pick just three! I marked five instead - that's also the rough number of traits I despise in Gwen out of these anyway; some of the options here don't bother me at all, or only bother me because they add up to everything else that's loathsome in her.

Like, infidelity is fine, I don't care about Gwen's personal dealings anyway (poor Rhys, though); facial expressions aren't something a person can really help, selfishness is such an understandable trait in anyone, and as for blatant fawning over Jack - while unattractive - well, it's Jack! Hard not to admire.

If I were to give my own top three repulsive Gwen's qualities, I'd say... chronic cretinism, belligerent sanctimony, and the fact that she's RTD's precious darling (and therefore the heroine of the story instead of an antagonist, as a character like that rightfully should be).

PS Hmm, it's not that Gwen's selfish that's the problem, it's that she's self-centred to the point where she doesn't even recognise anybody else as valid individuals with feelings, wit, and rights. In her world, there's Queen Gwen, there're some puppets she can (and does) use, and the rest are to be thrown over or 'at best' pitied.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

I left out infidelity as well, because it's a two-person game (even thouh I do feel sorry for Rhys, whom I love to pieces). All the other shit, however, she manages to produce all on her own. Although we could argue about Jack's culpability, since he's the one who lets her get away with just about everything.

[jsks.livejournal.com]

thank you for the birthday wishes.
the problem for me was not gwen's affair but after she tearfully confesses the affair with owen to rhys she then tells him she gave him a drug to make him forget what she told him while begging his forgiveness as he slips into sleep. my biggest problem is that she used retcon on the man she 'loves' after the events of tkks. my loathing of gwen is she took away rhys' freewill to make a choice of either forgiving her affair and staying or breaking their relationship off. fast forward to the events of meat and her refusal to allow jack to retcon rhys, her entire rant- hypocrisy thy name is gwen. gwen for all praises of of her 'normal' life with rhys didn't feel the need to 'confess' until owen broke off their affair. what does it say about our dear gwennie's people skills that tosh 'shy computer geek' has to tell her that the guy she is cheating on rhys with was having an affair on the side? i have much bigger problems with gwen then her affair.

[littleatem.livejournal.com]

Agree! Definitely agree!

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

I really have to agree re the denying Rhys his freewill, and the weird volte face in Meat. Hypocrisy indeed...

[jennelldhalrbj.livejournal.com]

I was very naughty and ticked them all before I discovered I was supposed to pick the three worst. So I had a thought and picked incompetency, selfishness and self righteousness.

Anyone heard the latest Torchwood news? Evidently Eve has said that if there was any more she would drop everything instantly to be in it and she knew John would too. Er--is that possible? Could they just drop everything? What about contracts?

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

It's almost impossible to pick just three! If I were to do this poll again (and I hope other people do!) I'd think about the questions a bit more!
Does EM have lots of jobs to drop? Apart from TW and DW (and that was years ago), there's not much high profile stuff that she's been in in recent years apart from 'Framed'. At least JB has his stage and singing career to drop, should the call come!

[kassy2.livejournal.com]

EM is not in anything at the moment- I really do feel a modicum of sympathy for her as she obviously believed RTD's rubbish and thought Hollywood would beat a path to her door!
She was in a small, Welsh speaking, soap on BBC Cymru before she had that one spot on DW- that I immediately forgot btw, I know we are not supposed to say this so if it gets removed I will understand, but I have never actually liked the actress at all- as an actress, I don't know her so she may be the nicest person on earth [although I have private opinions on that, too]- I just do not think she has much talent, simple as that. I thought she was awful in DW, I thought she was OK in Merlin. I could not watch Framed but it is BBC policy to give leaving actresses a "part" (see BP in that horrible Ruby in the Smoke thing and Freema in Little Dorrit, etc) it is just something they do, so EM getting a part Framed means nothing at all, just that a part was there and so was she.
As to "dropping everything" I am sure JB might try, but he was not able to do it for a part in DW, and I do wonder if even he might have begun to notice the marked lack of real interest and the terrible, awful, slating reviews that MD got- the most consistent reaction was that it was terminally boring- this form people who were not invested in slating Gwen, or noticing that at least one of the leading men looked as if he was carved form wood....

[milady-dragon.livejournal.com]

Great poll, although maybe there could have been an "All of the Above" ticky box. *laughs*

I have to say Gwen's infidelity didn't bother me; what bothered me was, when it came time for her to come clean and confess all and take the consequences, she gets out of it by Retconning poor Rhys. If she's accepted his censure then, I may have respected her just a tiny bit (it wouldn't have lasted, though). But no, she had to wriggle out of it.

The rest though are equally valid for me. And personally, I think a poll for each episode after a re-watch would be fun!

[aeshna-cyanea.livejournal.com]

But no, she had to wriggle out of it.

For me, the most damning thing about that is that she gave Rhys the Retcon before confessing her affair to him. That shows that it wasn't a case of Rhys reacting badly and Gwen panicking and deciding to escape the negative consequences by Retconning him then. It was all premeditated. She had absolutely no intention of facing the consequences even in the best case scenario of Rhys forgiving her. The whole confession was solely for her benefit.

I bet she thought that Rhys would forgive her, and that would have made it all right in her mind, sort of giving her retroactive permission for the affair. And since Rhys wouldn't remember anything, she wouldn't have to deal with him being disappointed in her, or suspicious in future, or even able to say that he wouldn't tolerate her having an affair again (i. e. like the one she was undoubtedly dreaming of having with Jack).

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

I couldn't set for only 3 answers either. I submitted 4 in the end but I hope you'll forgive me because I really think that

1)self righteousness
2)selfishness
3)incompetency
4)irritating facial expressions (doe eyes and so on)

really can't be left out. I would have easily marked all 10 and then some, actually.

[littleatem.livejournal.com]

I had to stop myself from checking all of them, in fact I had to go back and un-check all of them when I read the rules. I would also like to add an option "stubborness", because honestly RTD is showing that the Squeaky Wheel does always get the grease. That's not true in reality, for a while it'll happen but if it happens too much, the Squeaky Wheel will get the boot or the replacement.
But, in the end, I chose selfishness, infidelity and doesn't think ahead. I know it's slightly hypocritical to bash Gwen and praise Jack on infidelity, but Jack is from the 51st century, flirting is part of his nature and he only goes through with it on-screen with Ianto (hothouse scene I miss you so)(because in my opinion Miracle crap never happened. LALALALALA).

[aeshna-cyanea.livejournal.com]

As far as the accusation that it is hypocritical for us to condemn Gwen for her affair with Owen while having no problem with Jack, I have to say that there is a really big difference between them: as far as anybody knows, Jack has never cheated on anybody while he was in a committed relationship with them.

Most of this "Jack will have sex with anything that moves" stuff comes from interviews anyway. As for his actual in canon behaviour, yes, he flirts with anything that moves, but we have never seen that he follows through on it with anybody but Ianto. As far as I am concerned, it looks much more as though Jack is an inveterate flirt, and is (or maybe was) quite promiscuous. He most likely had lots of one night stands or short term flings. I have no problem believing that he had sex with lots of men, women, and aliens. But there has been no indication that any of that was going on during his relationship with Ianto (or any of his past relationships). Plus, from the way he was constantly telling Gwen not to let it drift, it seems that he had more respect for her relationship than she had herself.

[excentric397.livejournal.com]

All of the above would have been my choice, if it was available. :)

[mscatmoon.livejournal.com]

The last straw for me was the whole, 'Tosh, Ianto, Owen dying mader her feel important' scene. I can never forgive her for that, and it's affected my reading of TW fanfic. I used to be able to tolerate her in fic where she was portrayed as mostly okay. Now I know the depths of what a worthless, nasty b**** she is I can't 'pretend' she's okay. The fic where she an Ianto are "friends" makes me want to throw her into the rift and get her away from the poor guy who has no clue the dark nasty thoughts in her head, and that she'd be happy if he died. Any fic that portrays Gwen even halfway decent is imho OOC now. Totally OOC.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Haha, that feeling-important scene was not a revelation to me, just Gwen having the nerve to outright say what I already knew about her.

It might have been her behaviour in the next ep that sealed the deal of stamping Gwen over as irrevocably irredeemable to me. Don't quite remember why - it's safer that way, less negative emotions; something about her sinking to exciting new lows or general cretinism and, more importantly, cruelly abusing Jack for being shocked at his old lover's demise. (That ep also brings back warm feelings for the in-universe Gwen-hater Shapiro. Deceased, of course.)

Anyway, so much YES about Ianto & Gwen friendship in fic. Can't bring myself to read that even when I know the author is brilliant. It's okay, I think, for characters to be somewhat OOC occasionally, but Ianto & Gwen friendship is like some crime against all sense.

[iamme-ur2.livejournal.com]

So hard to limit myself to 3!!

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

Sorry, saw the rule to late and voted 8 out of the 10.

I think Gwen wouldn't even bother me that much if Torchwood TPTB wouldn't try to brainwash me into thinking she's the new holy virgin all the time. I've I could just sit back and think "what a b!tch and look she does get away with it again", I would like her a lot more.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Too true. And if, besides TPTB dropping propaganda, the show's other characters started reacting to her appropriately, she could've made for a perfectly valid, maybe even interesting antagonist.

[pomkeygeekange.livejournal.com]

My main problem was she lived when more experianced characters died, that just never sat right with me. That and well her treatment of tosh in gbg sealed it for me, allegedly she was so emphatic and lovely yet she she treated others like crap.

[totally4ryo.livejournal.com]

Just three? Oh that was hard - it took me all day to work it down to three. All ten works, but if I couldn't pick all, then besides selfishness, selfish comments and self-righteousness and... damn, instead of the last I accidentally ticked lack of empathy, which would have been 4th or 5th on my list. And there is also her fawning over Jack, sleeping with Owen (Rhys does not deserve her) and.... oh hell, just the rest.

I think you missed one, however: untouchable
After everything Ianto, Toshiko, Owen and even Jack went through, the stupid cow hardly suffered. If she thought it wasn't fair in Adrift, it was hardly nothing comparing to what the others had gone through at that point.

What about does not take responsibility for the consequences of her actions?

Oh, better stop now because this could turn into a novel.

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

Exactly, she never suffered. I remember pro Gwen folks saying that she suffered too when they lost first Owen and Tosh and then Ianto, but hey, since Miracle Crap we all know that only made her feel important. TPTB destroyed the ver last excuse to like her out there.

There was no chance to save Lisa, besides Ianto survived "the battle" and lost about 98% of his old co-workers there, Estelle couldn't be saved, Mary turned out evil, Diane was lost in the Rift, Tosh had to send Tommy to his death, only to end up with another psycho alien- Adam. Tosh lost her mother, ended up in a prison with no human rights and "sold" herself to TW in the end (keep in mind Gwen is there because she wants to, Tosh HAS to). Owen lost his whole future when Katie died, Jack loses his father in an alien raid when he was a kid, then went and searched ages for Grey only to find a insane murderer who then kills Tosh and Owen, Jack has to "eliminate" his own brother. Jack has a daughter who dislikes him more then he deserves and is right in the end after all when Jack has to kill Steven. And on top of that Jack loses the person he loves most, twice if you count the radio play in.

Now lets see what happens to sweet little Gwennie. Rhys dies in End of Days and she almost destroys the world because she wants him back.. only to tell Jack one episode later that she will marry Rhys because "no one else will have her". Yup, exactly the kind of love I would destroy the world for, too. Then Rhys gets shot in Meat and Gwennie throws a hiss fit... only to almost kiss Jack on her very own wedding (he was fake but she didn't know that).

Why does she deserve a happy ending ever time while everyone else doesn't even deserve a small miracle and a bit of happiness?

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't have picked it as one of my top three, but let's not forget about the racism and gay-bashing. Filipino chimney-sweeps, the 'you are so gay' flight attendent? Stay classy Gwen.

[jsks.livejournal.com]

i wonder about the fact that glaad nominated both coe and md for pro-gay messages. maybe they didn't see the same episodes we did.

[burningtorch.livejournal.com]

It was very difficult to cut it down to 3 top answers. It must've been difficult for you to cut it to the options on the poll.

1) Self-Righteousness
2) Selfishness
3) Fawning over Jack/others

The other things, in the comments so far too, did niggle with me a lot, but those were the main ones.

To paraphrase Chief Inspector Dreyfus in the Pink Panther series "Give me 10 people like Gwen and I could destroy the World..." :-(

[burningtorch.livejournal.com]

Just heard this great one from Frank Gallagher on Shameless: "If she'd been around a couple of 'undred years ago, she'd have been permanently strapped to a f*****g ducking stool." XD

Sorry, borderline troll. XP

[vengeful-owl.livejournal.com]

Is there an 'all of the above' option?

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

This was my first (and to date, last) poll!
Next time I'll think more about the question and the answers. I hope that someone else posts a better poll. Why don't you have a go?!

[ivyceltress.livejournal.com]

Just found this list. Yay

My top one is "everything is about her" and In her world view all the men are secretly in love with her and all the women are envious of her. During COuntrycide, from her smug smile, the game wasn't really "Who as the last person you snogged?" but "My life is more fabulous than Yoooouuu"

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

So very true!
I have to say I'd only just found the 'poll' icon when I posted this; if I did it again, I'd think more about the question!
Glad to see that self righteousness is top, even with people ticking ALL the boxes!

Friendship Ianto & any character

[sagrario martínez castro (from livejournal.com)]

It seems easy that Ianto can be a good friend of the team (I can see this with Tosh, with Owen, with Jack - they are together, so they are good friends too - but with Gwen, the writers had tried a couple of times but it was impossible)The actors seem they are good friends, we´ve seen that between John & Gareth (obviously!), with James Marsters, with Naoko, with Burn. I imagine with Eve too, but here I´ve seen Gareth less relaxed.
And in TW Gwen had an affair with Owen. With Ianto she had couldn´t, he wasn´t interested in her at all.