It's all Gwen's fault

[mscatmoon.livejournal.com]

This is another version of a discussion I started on another comm, but I realized it would be very on topic here too, with the focus on Gwen.  I was thinking about how MD would have been different with Ianto in it, when I realized that yet again there is more evidence for the belief that anyone who takes screen time and popularity away from Gwen has to go.  Which is why I'm expecting her to be the only one left standing at the end of MD.  RTD has come upon the perfect strategy to make sure Gwen is the star; every character that's not Gwen is a red shirt!  Start with all new characters every season and she's the only constant.

There's nothing worse than an immortal Mary Sue.

There was an interesting exchange in one of the radio plays, the 2nd I believe.  Ianto real-heart-of-Torchwood was worried about Jack even though he's immortal.  Gwen was more interested in Jack being careful with the laser canon because it's the only one they had. Sure fits her new MD image as the one with the Big Guns who loves mowing people down.

It's very much in character for Ianto to worry about Jack.  Now imagine the situation being reversed in MD, suddenly Jack is mortal and they're in dangerous situations.  Being Jack's lover, Ianto would naturally have a large role in the story.  For fans it would be a wonderful character study, interesting relationship stuff, and would really have added to the exploration of the theme of Jack being mortal while the rest of the world isn't.  Great opportunity for some humor as well as drama.  The scene in the bar could have ended with Ianto interrupting bartender's flirting with one of his so-clever droll lines.  I'm sure there are more examples but I haven't seen MD and don't intend to, I'm just going by things I've heard. 

So the more I think about what it might have been like with Ianto,  the more I realize that he would have taken far too much attention from the star of the show, Gwen.  Tosh and Owen would have just been totally in the way.  It's all about Gwen, so obvious they would not be welcome on her show.   As the hero, she has to be the one to protect poor vulnerable Jack. It has to be about her relationship with Jack. Being Jack's lover, Ianto would have taken a lot of the story away from her. Yep, I can really see why Ianto wasn't wanted or needed in this new TW. RTD knew what he was doing. Ianto was a threat to Gwen so he had to go. People liked Ianto better, so he had to go. Jack loved Ianto, so he had to go... It proves my theory that RTD kills off any characters that are more popular than Gwen in order to force people to like her.  It's not about Drama, or Torchwood being dangerous, or dead is dead, any of those excuses.  Yes I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but for me thinking about what role Ianto would have played in MD really brought Gwenwood into clear focus.  Beyond a shadow of a doubt.   It's scary what an obsession RTD has with Gwen.  Not to mention totally incomprehensible.  Even the few fans who like Gwen, I don't think they love her as much as RTD does.
 


 

Comments

[sarahjane6.livejournal.com]

I even think Jack will be gone at the end of the season. RTD rewrites his history at will, nothing can stand in the way of a Gwen take over in his mind.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

he'd be right in there using it himself,

Because I could believe he'd have had some experience with something like a rocket launcher AND that he could hit what he aimed at, with any weapon, far, far, far better than I could believe it of Gwen.

[kcracken.livejournal.com]

He also would have shot it sooner so the helicopter wouldn't have nearly taken off their heads. My first thought was, great, Gwen, there's a freaking BABY in the jeep.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Can you share a link to that discussion of Ianto's what-if role in MD you mention? Sounds interesting.

See, that's another reason I'm watching MD: I want to be fully in-the-know to enjoy all the MD Ianto fix-its that must appear after the season's run - have to appear, yes please, and possibly with the rest of the old gang, too.

As the hero, she has to be the one to protect poor vulnerable Jack.

Who wants to bet her 'looking after Jack' is going to involve a fair amount of bossing him around, and him taking it with a smile? =( Wouldn't be anything new.

I don't get it how can any rational individual like Gwen... But then, real-life 'Gwens' are also often liked by otherwise perfectly reasonable people, so that's just one of those life's inexplicable mysteries, I guess. =)

---

By the by, on the dead protagonists front, I've noticed a curious thing in all JB's promotional interviews: when (inevitably) asked about Ianto, he keeps getting out of answering directly by quoting RTD. (E.g., the latest (http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=32898) I've read: 'Russell T. Davies explains it better, he says we couldn't have transplanted the show in the States and brought the entire company with it. People had to die!'). Every - single - interview I've heard, saw, or read, he diverts this question to Russel.

And I just thought about GDL-penned post-CoE 'Shrouded' comic, where, in my opinion, Ianto is way OOC, but just the same amount of OOC as he was in CoE, only in the opposite direction. Which makes 'Shrouded' seem very much like a conscious and deliberate f-you to RTD the showrunners.

All this dovetailed into me wondering about the sort of dressing room discussions the actors themselves may have had while filming CoE, and whether JB is really so in tune with everything RTD suggests. (Although it does sound, unfortunately, that he genuinly agrees with him on quite a lot, including RTD's lauded 'genius'.)

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I've noticed a curious thing in all JB's promotional interviews: when (inevitably) asked about Ianto, he keeps getting out of answering directly by quoting RTD.

That would be because not only does John know RTD's insistence on Ianto being dead, dead, dead is stupid, but that he should be sure to remind people that said dumb idea is RTD's. John managed to slip off script with someone at SDCC in 2009 long enough to point them in the direction of the "Save Ianto Jones" Campaign. He was, for a while, mentioning the money the campaign has raised for charity in interviews. John isn't blind, and for all the dumb things he can do he also isn't completely stupid. He had the good sense to grab a picture of himself with Gareth while they were doing the radio plays.

All this dovetailed into me wondering about the sort of dressing room discussions the actors themselves may have had while filming CoE...

I doubt we'll hear how John really feels about it all until RTD can't hold his ability to play Jack over his head. I do know, however, that Kai Owen told a crowd at Chicago TARDIS that they were wrong to kill off Ianto Jones.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

That's right; I've heard/read JB praising SIJ efforts, too. Add to that the suspiciously word-for-word effusive pro-CoE statements by each and every MD cast member, and one starts to seriously consider conspiracy theories re: behind-the-scenes power play and the like. No surprise RTD's into 'political thriller' storylines these days, what with all the real-life inspiration so easy to envision gushing from behind the closed production room doors.

Kai Owen's brilliant as Rhys, on screen and in audio, and his character has been damn lucky so far ('so far' being the operative words, not unlikely) - perhaps, because RTD didn't consider Rhys important enough to mess with?..

P.S. They were wrong to kill off Tosh, too. Owen, I might buy into, but Tosh? No.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Add to that the suspiciously word-for-word effusive pro-CoE statements by each and every MD cast member, and one starts to seriously consider conspiracy theories re: behind-the-scenes power play and the like.

Oooh yeah! I've seen JB say he can't work on any other dramas while he's under contract for Torchwood. Now, he is the idiot that signed that contract, but how it matters here is the level of control the person who wrote the contract felt the need to have. I mean just how insecure are you that you won't let your star work on anything else?

Kai Owen's brilliant as Rhys, on screen and in audio, and his character has been damn lucky so far ('so far' being the operative words, not unlikely)...

I would like to hear the pre-COE audiobooks Kai's done. I haven't managed that. He's been lucky, and it isn't likely to last. Kai said, at the same con where he spoke about Ianto, he knows Rhys is very kill-able. He doesn't have any illusions about his job.

...perhaps, because RTD didn't consider Rhys important enough to mess with?

Oooh, just as Ianto was "supposed to die" in Cyberwoman, Rhys was "supposed to die" in "End of Days." I don't remember if it was RTD himself or Julie Gardner, but one of them said that it was decided Gwen would "never forgive Torchwood" if Rhys was killed because of it. He's a man on borrowed time.

P.S. They were wrong to kill off Tosh, too. Owen, I might buy into, but Tosh? No.

The thing that bothers me with the treatment Owen got, apart from the fact it was originally meant for Ianto, is the business of killing him twice. As far as I'm concerned people should either leave characters dead, or bringing them back to stay. It's just insulting to the the actor, character, and fans to kill a character off repeatedly. One of the reasons I'd just as soon RTD got around to putting Jack out of his misery.

[mscatmoon.livejournal.com]

Ooh ooh ohh! (jumps up & down like Horshack, bonus points for those that get the reference). So in that latest interview JB actually gave away more than that. It's proof that RTD had the U.S in his head before he killed off the old cast, and it was deliberate and calculated. He let TW get popular in the UK for 2 series, then destroyed it with a FU to the UK, so he could go to the U.S. and do the show he really wanted, Gwenwood. Well congradulations to him. I do hope BBC tosses him to the curb and cancels Gwenwood. Let's see if Starz wants to foot the whole bill. I'm still thinking spin off for Ianto would be the smart way for the BBC to go!

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

It's proof that RTD had the U.S in his head before he killed off the old cast, and it was deliberate and calculated.

It's not like RTD has been entirely shy about his intentionally being destructive towards Torchwood. He told the Radio Times before he ran off to the U.S. --

We could do another 13 episodes, we've learnt how to do that, and the second series was better than the first. But why not change it? I know if this was America, they'd try to keep it going for seven years, doing the same thing every week. And BBC America, who show Torchwood, are furious that we've changed the format. But they're not our paymasters. It's the British audience we make these for.

It's his last words there I remember the most. He said those just days before announcing his move to L.A. Plus, of course, there's been his reaction to the UK fans who dared to be outraged by having to wait for MD to air in the UK. The only person RTD really cares about is RTD.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

By the by, on the dead protagonists front, I've noticed a curious thing in all JB's promotional interviews: when (inevitably) asked about Ianto, he keeps getting out of answering directly by quoting RTD. (E.g., the latest I've read: 'Russell T. Davies explains it better, he says we couldn't have transplanted the show in the States and brought the entire company with it. People had to die!'). Every - single - interview I've heard, saw, or read, he diverts this question to Russel.

wondering about the sort of dressing room discussions the actors themselves may have had while filming CoE

See, that's another reason I'm watching MD: I want to be fully in-the-know to enjoy all the MD Ianto fix-its that must appear after the season's run - have to appear, yes please, and possibly with the rest of the old gang, too.

Well, you *do* realize that COE and MD are both AU, caused by Gwen having a minor breakdown due the horrors *she* had to endure when Grey showed up and caught Jack's attention. I mean, the explosions in Cardiff made her favourite vase fall off the shelf in her flat - and it *broke*!!!! (This explains Tosh's and Owen's "deaths" as well. Owen wasn't paying enough of the "right kind of attention" to Gwen any longer, so he disappeared from her perception, and, Tosh was nearly at the end of her 5-year contract with Jack/TW, and *might* have decided to stay on, taking some of Jack's attention off Gwen AND Tosh was :sigh: still wearing her jeans tucked inside her boots sometimes and always wore high heels which made her calves look *amazing*. Of course Tosh had to go. As far as Ianto, well, she'd allowed him to stay, to clean up the Hub and be her wedding consultant dogsbody, but after she'd gotten rid of the Hub so she could go live in her weekend cottage on the shore with Jack, and after Ianto had finished writing all her thank you notes, he wasn't needed any more, Rhys could do all the cooking and cleaning and nannying. He deserved to die like a dog for distracting Jack from her magnificence. RTD told her so in her sad, wet dreams.)

I think John made his feelings about COE pretty clear in his second autobiography. After reading that, I looked at his video interviews about MD. In VERY few of them do you see his eyes sparkle. He says his (memorized) lines, but his eyes are frequently flat and dull. IMHO, he's not REALLY, from the depths of his heart, trying to get us to believe what he's saying. (Watch his eyes in his MD interviews and compare what you see there with his TNT interviews. I think you'll see a big difference.)

I'd guess his contract for MD has it spelled out in small words what he has to say/not say about the current show. (Also, I'm not an entertainment contract guru, but I thought it was interesting that he was prevented from acting in any other dramas. I could see a "you can only act on our show while we're filming", to make sure he's available, but allowing him to appear on comedy/entertainment shows but not dramas? That kind of smacks of "we don't want the viewer to be able to see and compare the quality of the acting/direction/cinematography of our show to someone else's show." It makes me go "Hmmmm....")

And BBC America, who show Torchwood, are furious that we've changed the format. But they're not our paymasters. It's the British audience we make these for.

Wow! I hadn't heard this. No wonder MD isn't being shown on BBCA. Huh. (So, yeah, RTD. How's that non-TW career in the US going? Y'know, Starz isn't exactly HBO or Showtime.)

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

AND Tosh was :sigh: still wearing her jeans tucked inside her boots sometimes

Don't get me started on Gwen's, ahem, so-called 'fashion sense'. Somehow she invariably manages to be the worst-dressed person in the series; where's the costume department looking?

Well, you *do* realize that COE and MD are both AU

Well, no, I don't really; 'fraid my mind just won't wrap around CoE in any way, shape, or form. CoE? What's CoE? =)
Exactly what MD is, I don't know yet. It's only just started. A spin-off of a spin-off, I suppose.

RTD told her so in her sad, wet dreams

The Torch-verse has got itself a cruel, cruel god... You know how there are meta-stories where the characters go on a quest to meet their writer? Wonder how would such a meeting go if, say, Jack endeavoured to have a word with his.

I think John made his feelings about COE pretty clear in his second autobiography.

Yup, as clear as one can without pointing fingers and being directly insulting. But he did sign up for more, and he does praise RTD (I think) unprompted, so... Guess he may love Jack just enough to never be able to refuse to play him in anything, any way.
Another thing is, he says he's good friends with the other cast members, which, as I see it, tends to cloud his view of their characters' relationships.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Watch his eyes in his MD interviews and compare what you see there with his TNT interviews. I think you'll see a big difference.

I figure nobody much can disctate to him how to behave and what to say about TTN; small wonder he always sounds excited about being able to produce TTN himself - more so if what we're speculating here in ragards to TW TPTB's machinations is true.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

A spin-off of a spin-off, I suppose.

Yep. I've had CoE fans argue out of one side of their mouth that CoE is Original Series while arguing out of the other side that MD isn't related to the Original. *Rolls eyes.*

The Torch-verse has got itself a cruel, cruel god... You know how there are meta-stories where the characters go on a quest to meet their writer?

Heh. I had a meta-dream, before the CoE panel at SDCC in 2009, where Jack and the team managed to save John Barrowman from the evil aliens that showed up and ate RTD. >:)

Guess he may love Jack just enough to never be able to refuse to play him in anything, any way. Another thing is, he says he's good friends with the other cast members, which, as I see it, tends to cloud his view of their characters' relationships.

I'm afraid so.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I think John made his feelings about COE pretty clear in his second autobiography.

I'd like to get to read it sometime. I've heard he was pissed at Euros Lynn about things. I thought of it when I saw Christopher Eccleston mention, in his explanation of why he left Doctor Who, one of the things that bothered him working on the show was watching a director hassling a crew man.

That kind of smacks of "we don't want the viewer to be able to see and compare the quality of the acting/direction/cinematography of our show to someone else's show." It makes me go "Hmmmm...."

I believe it should make a person think.

Wow! I hadn't heard this.

It's out of a Radio Times issue from around the time CoE began airing in the UK. I don't know the exact issue number because I didn't get it saved with the quote, and haven't been able to track it down. I live on the wrong side of Atlantic to readily get my hands on issues.

No wonder MD isn't being shown on BBCA. Huh.

They don't strictly buy pre-packaged BBC shows. They have money they could have contributed to MD. They made a choice, just as FOX did, to not contribute to MD. They had more reason to pass than FOX. Not only because of RTD's pissing on them with CoE, but because having aired CoE they got some of the blow back. BBCA was sending out apology cards after CoE. I didn't get one personally, but I know members of the SIJ who did get postcards from BBCA apologizing for the show.

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

BBCA was sending out apology cards after CoE. I didn't get one personally, but I know members of the SIJ who did get postcards from BBCA apologizing for the show.

I didn't know that. That's... WOW! Do you know what they apologized for, specifically? Was it about the content (gay bashing + child killing) or more mundane things like 5 eps. miniseries, minor editing, release of DVDs and such?

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

BBCA was sending out apology cards after CoE. I didn't get one personally, but I know members of the SIJ who did get postcards from BBCA apologizing for the show.

Wow! That's...::is speechless, trying to wrap brain around concept::

[mscatmoon.livejournal.com]

I thought of it when I saw Christopher Eccleston mention, in his explanation of why he left Doctor Who, one of the things that bothered him working on the show was watching a director hassling a crew man.

I remember reading an interview where CE said something along the lines of: "I didn't want to be around that kind of an environment." That makes you think. He didn't give specifics, he's obviously also a classy person like Gareth (or maybe RTD had/has power to damage an actor's career; I don't understand it because it really does seem like everyone is afraid of being honest about him and have to pretend he's wonderful & brillant).

[ruby-took.livejournal.com]

I think John made his feelings about COE pretty clear in his second autobiography. After reading that, I looked at his video interviews about MD.

Agreed. John is one of the most enthusiastic people I've ever come across. Somehow I can't imagine him sticking to what RTD said if he really believed any of it.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Who wants to bet her 'looking after Jack' is going to involve a fair amount of bossing him around, and him taking it with a smile?

Of course it will be. That's apparently how RTD writes "relationships". ::rolls eyes::

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

My husband's watching MD - I refuse. I might watch it if we get to the end of the season and Jack's still alive, but what I have seen - I just threw up in my mouth a little.

The bit with her screaming, "I'll be back, I'll be back!" Who is he now, the frickin' Gweninator?

Just... Bleh - I'd rather be studying. And doing it this way, the season will be over right about when my quarter ends, so I'll either have it when I have free time or I'll be able to rest easy knowing that I didn't waste time that I needed to be hitting the books...

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

I think John just missed the right time to put his foot down and screw "stop". Once upon a time this show was about Jack Harkness and his team, he was the character who brought DW-viewers to the show. Of course Gwen was always "the star" for RTD, but I think if John would have been more sceptical about how they wrote Jack in CoE in the first place, then he would be in a far better position right now.

The sad thing is, it is not only affecting Torchwood, personally, I once admired him, read his books and loved them, loved the person he claims to be in them, he disappointed me too much since then. I HOPE that they kill off Jack, the Radio Plays where enough for me to "get over" how OOC he was in CoE and I certainly won't watch MC (because I don't want to get to the point again where I even wish Jack out of my very own "in my head canon").

[mscatmoon.livejournal.com]

Ditto. ITA. Me too. THIS.

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

John wouldn't have put his foot down. He said he plays the character as written because he doesn't believe in putting input into his characters as that would be (to him) telling the writers how to do their job.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

...he doesn't believe in putting input into his characters as that would be (to him) telling the writers how to do their job.

*Sighs.* It's too bad. Someone sure needs to tell them how to do their job.