The Cupcake's Mind

[satanassa.livejournal.com]

Reviewing the events of the Torchwood radio play 'Submission' that aired last week, I had a thought about the way Gwen's mind, or rather conscience, functions.

When the underwater alien reaches into Gwen's mind, it remarks that her thoughts are all very sweet and quite free of regrets, unlike those of Jack. (I may be remembering this wrong, so please correct me in that case)

This means that Gwen is not troubled by remorse or guilt for all the things she has done -- messed up on her first team job and caused the death of several by alien sex gas, cheated on Rhys with Owen, 'confessed' to Rhys and then retconned him so that he wouldn't remember, lied to Rhys three-quarters of the time before he came to know about Torchwood, constantly pined for Jack, lied to her parents about her fake pregnancy, was condescending to Ianto, was condescending to Tosh, etc etc.
She also seems to not have any grief for the deaths of her two team-mates Tosh and Owen. Instead, the alien reports, Gwen's mind is filled with thoughts of Jack (please note that her mind does not seem to be filled with thoughts of her husband Rhys!).

So, by the canon of the radio plays, what we've got is a character who has done bad things but doesn't even realise the harm she's caused. She continues to obsess over her unobtainable boss (despite being married) and is supremely unconcerned about the effect of her actions. That is extremely disturbing -- more disturbing than any kind of alien threat!

Comments

[pfyre.livejournal.com]

another disturbing thing - is that in one of the behind-the-scenes videos promoting 'Miracle Day' - John says [paraphrased] "There is a lot of John and Eve in Jack and Gwen." - hmmmm... to me that pretty much confirms that Eve is about as clueless as Gwen, etc.

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

Or it's just JB re-warming old jokes.

I remember that at some Con (Comic Con???) He said:
"There's a lot of John in Jack."
And Gareth, in a moment of JB like food-in-mouth put in:
"There's a lot of Ianto in Jack as well" (Or something along the lines).

Though why would Gwen..... argh! Somebody please retcon me now!

[pfyre.livejournal.com]

honestly in the context of the bts video - I don't think he was joking but serious in regards to them putting a lot of themselves into their characters

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

So, by the canon of the radio plays...

Well, at least we cannot accuse the radio plays writers to write Gwen OOC ;)

I always thought that the other writers, producers and showrunner knew the characters and grasped the dynamics among them better than RTD ever did. This is further evidence of that.

[mscatmoon.livejournal.com]

And that my friends, is why Gwen will never be able to go through any character growth, why she'll never be a character viewers can relate to. Why so many of us will never like her no matter what she does on the show. She's one-dimensional. Jack has done things he isn't proud of, and he knows it. He regrets them and pays for them. Acknowledges them.

Another thing showing how stupid she is. She's so obsessed with Jack, wants him for herself, but she has no clue the difficulties in loving an immortal man. Ianto could certainly tell her it isn't easy. No way she could handle it or stick around when she starts aging and Jack is still young & handsome. Maybe that's why Jack never made a move on her, much as he's attracted to her (altho god knows why) he realizes she couldn't deal with it in the long haul. If anyone could have, it would be Ianto. (wow, I'd love to see a fic with that theme).

[dr-doomsduck.livejournal.com]

It's the tits, he liked her for her tits...I'm betting you!

But like with house of the dead, where we got comfirmation of Jack's love for Ianto, here we get comformation that Gwen is a sociopath who really doesn't care about people's lives and is pretty happy making sure she gets whatever she wants.

[girl-panic.livejournal.com]

A million times, this.

I am not a total Gwen hater but it is so damn hard to like her! She is an unsympathetic, whiny, and selfish character. It's no wonder RTD killed off Ianto. He turned out to be the sympathetic, lovable character that people could relate too instead of his precious Gwen, and rather than try to redeem Gwen and grow her into a likable character as well, he simply killed off her competition.

Lazy writing, RTD.

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

>>Jack has done things he isn't proud of, and he knows it. He regrets them and pays for them. Acknowledges them.<<


THAT! And so do Ianto (Lisa), Tosh (her mother, Mary...) and Owen (shooting Jack). Ianto and Tosh both ARE with Torchwood to make up for their crimes. Tosh signed up for 5 years to get out of the UNIT prison and Ianto stayed after Lisa (and I'm pretty sure he was offered the easy-retconny-way out). Both give their lives because of it in the end.

But why IS Gwen with Torchwood? They could have made her a character like Tosh or Ianto in the second episode, with the alien sex gas, they could have turned her into somebody with regret just then. But nope. Gwen is the spoiled little princess who gets everything. No normal person above the age of 5 will fall for that.

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

"No normal person above the age of 5 will fall for that."
Perhaps explaining why, when I accidentally read any 'Gwack' or 'Gwen is awesome' fanfiction, and then look at the writer's profile, I find that they are pubescent girls. The grammar and spelling are also (frequently) appalling, too.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

So true. The complete lack of personal growth and any hint of self-reflection easily make Gwen the least sympathetic character on the show.

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

lawford did a wonderful story that addresses Jack speaking to the Tardis and the Tardis making him mortal again. It also made him old. Gwen was in it briefly with her reaction to Jack's changes and Ianto was still in love with Jack. It's a great story called Metamorphosis.

[jsks.livejournal.com]

i will have to buy the radio plays now.
what do you expect from a woman who would hold a baby in one arm while holding a weapon in another standing in front of a window being shot at, self reflection seems to be lacking in both rusty and his awesomegwen.
i just heard a rumor on fb that eve is already talking about another season of gwenwood to start filming in nov, heaven help us.

[ruby-took.livejournal.com]

She also seems to not have any grief for the deaths of her two team-mates Tosh and Owen.

Not so surprising, when you consider that she seems to have forgotten that they died. Because when Carlie had that semi-meltdown about people always dying in Torchwood, Gwen immediately replied that that might have been true in Torchwood One, but things are different in Torchwood Three...
Eh, Gwen, you do remember that you just lost two of your colleagues, who we're told were your friends, don't you? No? Ah well...

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

What? Other people like she and Jack don't count anyway and both of them don't die.... well in the past that is. Because if they are really start shooting in LA in November JB should be very busy with concerts and Panto in the UK until January... just saying,

[pfyre.livejournal.com]

actually John made comments about filming TWD in January AND his panto run is only 3 weeks as opposed to the 5 weeks it normally is - so I think it was planned to end early so he could get to LA to film

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

Sorry but who is Carlie? Is it someone from Miracle Day? I haven't seen any of it or the complete cast list.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

She's from The Lost Files: Submission radioplay. A TW1 survivor who used to be infatuated with Ianto once, but he had been onto Lisa already.

[littleatem.livejournal.com]

Gwen's mind reminds me of a goldfish... 30 second memory, a need to procreate, and no feelings for anyone beside herself and the one she wants to sleep with. Gappy the fish, maybe that's why the Blowfish Gave her such a high praise in KKBB.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Apt comparison. Even the visuals fit, with the big soulful bulging eyes. =)
Gwen/Blowfish? It needs to be done! =)

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Don't send plotbunnies my way! I already have more than I can feed without help!

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

Now that's insulting goldfishes. LOL. You know, all the time I wondered if Ianto would be alien/half alien, guess I got that one wrong, Gwen is half blowfish.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Have you listened to The Sin Eaters? I have just last week, and the part that really stood out for me was when alien influence made Gwen see her past actions for what they were, grow a conscience, in a word. Which, of course, only really lasted for the duration of that alien influence, but what I found most galling about the whole affair was how Jack took her aside in the end and tried to convince her those regrets of hers weren't serious, just another alien mind-control thing to forget about.

It's just a book, aka 'licensed fanfiction', but - still... Not that I imagine Gwen wouldn't filter it out of her mind soon enough, but Jack encouraging her like that was painful to hear.

Anyway, nothing really to add to your post; only I felt like I needed to correct this bit: Gwen didn't retcon Rhys after she confessed to him, but before. I find this a detail of major importance. The former I could have understood, the latter is practically monstrous.

[littleatem.livejournal.com]

Agreed on the retcon. Before this I thought she was just clueless and was able to brush her off. However, with that one scene, I wanted to shove her off a cliff.

Gwen- I love you. I had an affair. Forgive me.
Rhys- No
Gwen- You will, I gave you retcon. Now forgive me! Forgive me!
Rhys- No. *passes out*

Just imagine what would happen to poor Jack if he ever lost his mind enough to even think about "dating" her (excuse me while I hurl at the thought). She would put it in his scotch every night before he went to bed.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Ah but you missed the all important part where Rhys starts to say,"you bitch." Which kind of says it all really.

[littleatem.livejournal.com]

So sorry. That was the best part wasn't it.

Gwen is probably stealing the same amount of retcon that Suzie was, hence why no one noticed any of the missing items. Probably the one and only moment of clarity that Gwen ever had and ever will have.

[kamiandcat.livejournal.com]

Exactly, it was not a "OMG he's taking that badly-panic reaction" it was planned like that. All Gwen wanted was to get it off her soul and then to get out of it unscratched.

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

I have the first 3 radio plays and had the first 9 books. I found something to dislike in all of them and haven't gotten any plays or books since. Like the show, even those plays/books that featured another character as the main one still have too much Gwen in them so it distracts from the main character's story.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

still have too much Gwen in them so it distracts from the main character's story

Is why I found the recent 'House of the Dead' particularly enjoyable: if nothing else, it's blissfully Gwen-free.

[milady-dragon.livejournal.com]

You know, sometimes the 'official' writers can bash Gwen better than the best fanfic writers can. Which is freaking hilarious.

What is funnier, of course, is that the Gwen fans totally don't see it, proving that RTD can convince certain weak-minded people of anything. You know, in that regard he really is kinda like some sort of cult leader...the Cult of Gwen, of course.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

Darth RTD? 'This isn't the Torchwood you're looking for.'

Yes about the actual show's writers. Always thought they couldn't have made Gwen less appealing if they tried. Keeps me bewildered as to how could they have done this if not on purpose?

[bk_forever]

It makes me even more amused to think RTD would have had final approval over all scripts, but apparently he never noticed the way his beloved Gwen was being treated by the writers he'd hired. *smirk* He just carried on about what a wonderful, caring person Gwen is while on screen she was anything but. It confirms my suspicions that he never actually watched his own show. Either that or he's so blinded by the gap between her teeth that he couldn't see past it..

[mscatmoon.livejournal.com]

Despite acting like he ruled over everything, I've suspected that RTD actually had little to do with S1 &S2. He never really wanted to do Torchwood, he wanted Excalibur aka: Gwenwood. I don't think he cared that much. It was a means to an end. He used it and it's popularity (and JB's) to get to a point where he could have his Gwenwood. And a shiny new Hollywood career. Well, we'll see how that works out for him.

[bk_forever]

Agreed, of course, I'm sure everyone knows by now that Torchwood was just a convenient springboard to get Excalibur made (since that's all MD is really).

Still, I've long had a suspicion that the scripts were originally more even-handed in the amount each character had to do or say, then Rusty came along, read the script and said "Well, it's okay, but give those lines to Gwen instead of Tosh, have Gwen do this and this instead of Ianto and Owen, oh, and it needs to be Gwen doing this and saying this instead of Jack. There, that's much better, can't have anyone upstaging my central character." It's the only explanation I can think of for Gwen doing medical and forensic things instead of the team's actual medic, leaving better actors with precious little to do for their paychecks.

[charie-caphine.livejournal.com]

The more I mull over these discussions, the more I'm coming to the same conclusions, both about RTD's involvement and ultimate goals.

For instance, the way Gwen never gets any retribution for her blunders and insubordination, never even seems to notice or remember them - were these in the original script drafts, then removed by RTD?

If he was even involved that far and didn't just give out a set of directives to check for at a glance in the end, something like: involve Gwen 70% centre stage, squeeze in Gwen/Jack UST, extoll Gwen's irresistible beauty and infallible sense of justice. Parameters somehow met, who cares about the context and the rest of the content, there's DW to deal with anyway.

I always remember somebody commenting on JB mentioning he tried to shake off the people who didn't care about TW enough from the production team, and how - that somebody noted - he has missed shaking off one very important person: RTD.

[bk_forever]

Yep, there are two things Torchwood would have been much better without - Gwen and RTD!

I wouldn't put it mast RTD to have removed anything in the scripts that he thought was critical of Gwen in any way - but I guess he didn't pay THAT much attention all the time because things still slipped through *smirk* Some writers proved quite good at sneaking in a certain amount of anti-Gwen-ness.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

I've suspected that RTD actually had little to do with S1 &S2.

I'm definitely agree - look at how the show changed when DW wasn't taking up all of his time.

[jsks.livejournal.com]

for me the oddest thing about gwen's little self-centered rant was that it was written by the actor who played rose's boyfriend mickey. i chuckle when gwennies complain about gwen bashing because i don't believe that even the most miliant aga member bashs gwen as well as the writers of canon.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Rose's boyfriend, Mickey, who'd been belittled and ignored by the "important" characters on the show he was in? Gee, whoda thunk it.

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

I thought he only did Combat and Rhy's retconning was in Out of Time? Its been so long since I've seen series 1. COE ruined Torchwood for me. All I have now are the fanfic stories and a lot of them are so boring.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

the Cult of Gwen, of course.

Or would that be a Gwult? (Which sounds like my cats, right before they hack up a hairball.) ::wanders off, whistling innocently::

[michael-the-car.livejournal.com]

Gwult?!

Thanks for that, I'll never look at my moggies the same way again.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Well, you know they're very um...vocal? (demonstrative?)...about how they feel about things.

"Mom! The cat's going gwult again!"