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antigwenallies May. 10th, 2011 09:04 pm)
dr-doomsduck.livejournal.com posting in antigwenallies May. 10th, 2011 09:04 pm)The thing that Torchwood was missing, that Captain Jack knew was missing, at that time, was someone like Gwen Cooper, but it took a hundred years to find the right person...
- Richard Stokes, Producer of Torchwood season one and two.
Now, some of the brave souls who dared to venture in the area of the dreaded MiracleDay Whip previews might have noticed, a recurring theme there is a bomb, one that is about to go off. Probably meant by the producers as a sign of the 'explosive' birth rate that is about to occur...or Gwen is finally going to blow up the earth for real, the judges aren't out on that one yet . Point is, a discussion over at Weis07's Journal connected Gwen as being a ticking bomb, ready to go off, which made us wonder if she hadn't gone off already. which brings me to this:
How well has Torchwood fared Since Gwen joined?
mere hours after Gwen gets introduced, Suzie blows her brains out. We know Suzie had a long good record with Torchwood and that the glove changed her, had Gwen been more careful or more thorough in her acting, her death could have been prevented.
Gwen gets hired as the 'heart' of Torchwood, in charge of keeping them human, helping them emotionally.
First flaw: Totally and utterly ignoring Ianto. Result: Lisa. True, the other members did so too, but they weren't hired to help the others stay human, if she had taken the time to talk to him, to realise that something was off or gain his trust, things would've happened differently.
Second flaw: Totally and utterly ignoring Tosh. Same as with Ianto. Result: Mary. If somebody had kept it in her pants or talked to Tosh like she was hired too, Mary might have never have gotten her chance, leaving Tosh a happier, healthier individual.
Third Flaw: disregarding Owen. Result: Combat, Rift opening, Abbadon. If Gwen had showed any respect or even noticed his situation with Diane, she might have not left him alone with Ianto and together they would've been able to stop him, or prevent the situation from happening all together.
Fourth Flaw: Ignoring Jack and forcefully taking over command Result: Abbadon. If Gwen was the most stable with her emotions, or the one who really cared, then why was she the only one to clog jack and the one who definitely opened the rift. She wasn't the one who stopped the beast, she wasn't even there to help Torchwood rebuilt. After indirectly killing the boss, she went to sit by him in the morgue.
Now, I'm not even going to repeat the multiple moronic actions Gwen did to make things harder for Torchwood the rest of the season, but by all means discuss below how Gwen screwed up in the general line of duty as well.
Then there's season two. Where Owen and Tosh died (Okay, Owen not permanently at first). If Gwen was the people oriënted person she was supposed to be surely she would've thought of Tosh before she bled to death and hell, maybe Tosh could've helped Owen survive after that. Ofcourse as with the first season, Gwen continues to monumentally fuck up by not listening, being selfish, or simply not following through on some victims wishes.
Along comes CoE, Where Gwen boldly proclaims herself recruiting officer (only after Ianto and Jack had reeled someone in). Now if Gwen had taken that job seriously, and not just went for a coffee with the doctor. She would've noticed perhaps gaps in his personal history, liabilities that betrayed him as a spy for Johnson. Instead...Jack gets a bomb and the Hub goes BOOM!!! no more workplace, gone are a hundred years of torchwood history and artefacts. Why? because Gwen knew people so well. Skipping to day four. Of course Gwen being the experienced field agent she is, goes out to face the 456, especially after disregarding her pregnancy like that, nothing would stop her from being a gung-ho action hero...except that she sat on her ass instead and let the ONLY tech expert they had left to go of on a field mission...where he died and Clem dies as well, because the only thing Gwen can think of is shutting the computers off. Clem, the grown man who would've made a perfect proxy for Steven. So Jack leaves.
Gwen Cooper, Last one standing. Just like Jack was a decade ago, when Alex killed off the entire team. Now it's her turn to be the leader, to rebuild the oh so necessary Torchwood (even without a rift as demonstrated by the 456). Oh, she's pregnant, but not handicapped. Give the queen a call, or Martha, or Sarah Jane and Torchwood could be legal and up and running. Hell, she could just rebuilt it and give the leadership to someone else while she raises her daughter.
Except she doesn't.
(rebuild Torchwood I mean, though I doubt she raises her daughter, Rhys seems to be a single parent)
Nope, The 100-year-old organisation is left to rot in urban legends.
So, Was Gwen Cooper really what Torchwood needed? In the span of two years it went from a functioning highly adapted organisation to an illegal pile of ashes. Most Torchwood operatives work five years average. Tosh was the only one who made that, barely. The average went down 40% with Gwen there. I'm still waiting for that improvement Gwen was supposed to bring, unless what Torchwood needed was to be brought down in flames.
What would it have taken for Torchwood to continue to excist, a little less mercy? a little more paranoia? less selfishness? you tell me.
- Richard Stokes, Producer of Torchwood season one and two.
Now, some of the brave souls who dared to venture in the area of the dreaded Miracle
How well has Torchwood fared Since Gwen joined?
mere hours after Gwen gets introduced, Suzie blows her brains out. We know Suzie had a long good record with Torchwood and that the glove changed her, had Gwen been more careful or more thorough in her acting, her death could have been prevented.
Gwen gets hired as the 'heart' of Torchwood, in charge of keeping them human, helping them emotionally.
First flaw: Totally and utterly ignoring Ianto. Result: Lisa. True, the other members did so too, but they weren't hired to help the others stay human, if she had taken the time to talk to him, to realise that something was off or gain his trust, things would've happened differently.
Second flaw: Totally and utterly ignoring Tosh. Same as with Ianto. Result: Mary. If somebody had kept it in her pants or talked to Tosh like she was hired too, Mary might have never have gotten her chance, leaving Tosh a happier, healthier individual.
Third Flaw: disregarding Owen. Result: Combat, Rift opening, Abbadon. If Gwen had showed any respect or even noticed his situation with Diane, she might have not left him alone with Ianto and together they would've been able to stop him, or prevent the situation from happening all together.
Fourth Flaw: Ignoring Jack and forcefully taking over command Result: Abbadon. If Gwen was the most stable with her emotions, or the one who really cared, then why was she the only one to clog jack and the one who definitely opened the rift. She wasn't the one who stopped the beast, she wasn't even there to help Torchwood rebuilt. After indirectly killing the boss, she went to sit by him in the morgue.
Now, I'm not even going to repeat the multiple moronic actions Gwen did to make things harder for Torchwood the rest of the season, but by all means discuss below how Gwen screwed up in the general line of duty as well.
Then there's season two. Where Owen and Tosh died (Okay, Owen not permanently at first). If Gwen was the people oriënted person she was supposed to be surely she would've thought of Tosh before she bled to death and hell, maybe Tosh could've helped Owen survive after that. Ofcourse as with the first season, Gwen continues to monumentally fuck up by not listening, being selfish, or simply not following through on some victims wishes.
Along comes CoE, Where Gwen boldly proclaims herself recruiting officer (only after Ianto and Jack had reeled someone in). Now if Gwen had taken that job seriously, and not just went for a coffee with the doctor. She would've noticed perhaps gaps in his personal history, liabilities that betrayed him as a spy for Johnson. Instead...Jack gets a bomb and the Hub goes BOOM!!! no more workplace, gone are a hundred years of torchwood history and artefacts. Why? because Gwen knew people so well. Skipping to day four. Of course Gwen being the experienced field agent she is, goes out to face the 456, especially after disregarding her pregnancy like that, nothing would stop her from being a gung-ho action hero...except that she sat on her ass instead and let the ONLY tech expert they had left to go of on a field mission...where he died and Clem dies as well, because the only thing Gwen can think of is shutting the computers off. Clem, the grown man who would've made a perfect proxy for Steven. So Jack leaves.
Gwen Cooper, Last one standing. Just like Jack was a decade ago, when Alex killed off the entire team. Now it's her turn to be the leader, to rebuild the oh so necessary Torchwood (even without a rift as demonstrated by the 456). Oh, she's pregnant, but not handicapped. Give the queen a call, or Martha, or Sarah Jane and Torchwood could be legal and up and running. Hell, she could just rebuilt it and give the leadership to someone else while she raises her daughter.
Except she doesn't.
(rebuild Torchwood I mean, though I doubt she raises her daughter, Rhys seems to be a single parent)
Nope, The 100-year-old organisation is left to rot in urban legends.
So, Was Gwen Cooper really what Torchwood needed? In the span of two years it went from a functioning highly adapted organisation to an illegal pile of ashes. Most Torchwood operatives work five years average. Tosh was the only one who made that, barely. The average went down 40% with Gwen there. I'm still waiting for that improvement Gwen was supposed to bring, unless what Torchwood needed was to be brought down in flames.
What would it have taken for Torchwood to continue to excist, a little less mercy? a little more paranoia? less selfishness? you tell me.
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Anyhow, it seems that even in episodes RTD does not actually write himself he has final say on the script and alters it at times if he chooses, and he obviously never does any research on any subject when he writes about it. {Take Miracle Crap for example, the basic premiss is rubbish}. He thinks he knows everything already,
obviously.
For Torchwood to continue to exist we needed 2 things to happen:
RTD was dismissed as head writer or decided to leave for some reason or simply went someplace far off like Mars.
Whoever wrote the episodes after RTD left killed off Gwen in some dramatic and revolting way. I can think of some great ways myself, if anyone is interested.
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Octavia.
Thank you for asking.
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You must love pregnancy, three were enough- more than enough- for me!!
I hope all goes easy and smooth and rainbows all the way!!
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And yes, I found it really significant that after this “humane factor” appeared in Torchwood everything went to hell. No, not specifically because of Gwen, but it didn’t help that half the time team had to save her from her own stupidity and solve Gwen-inflicted problems. Being all “humane and compassionate” she never had time and compassion for her own team mates. No, her life outside, her personal problems and opinion were always much more important than Torchwood.
Also the funny thing is that she never, ever shows any interest to aliens and never was really helpful or even useful during cases or crisis. That’s really baffling, especially if we look at the quote above. Torchwood waited for hundred years for somebody who doesn’t give a damn about its work unless said work lets this person look good and important? WHY? That’s crucial question – and we’ll never know, probably, what good Gwen did for Torchwood. That’s why Eve Myles’ words that:
"Gwen constantly evolves. She’s gone from this ordinary woman in Wales to saving the world on a regular basis. She has to constantly learn. Her life is no longer her own, which highlights how important Gwen is. She’s all business, as opposed to Jack and Ianto, who are sort of the comic relief."
baffle me immensely. I just don’t see what she sees in Gwen. Not to mention “solving the word” part. When did this happen and why I don’t know anything about it? I remember Abaddon and Gwen’ key role in releasing him, but her saving the world – no, sorry. I do remember how Jack did saved the world – several times, in fact, but not Gwen.
That’s I think the main reason why Gwen disrupted Torchwood routine and why it has to go (both as the show and storyline). Gwen’ creators put so much importance in her life outside of Torchwood that it eclipses Torchwood itself. Just think – even when it’s end of the world outside we see only how team abandons their work and helps Gwen with her personal problems. Such melodrama is more fit in soap opera and not in sci-fi show where main factors of entertainment should be aliens and adventure.
Plus, in case of Torchwood, team dynamics is one of interesting factors. But Gwen disrupts it too by being too condescending, by putting herself before others and by being all over Jack while we can clearly see that this pining leads nowhere (while Jack and Ianto relationship makes sense and develops). “I have life, and you are forgot what it means to be human/cold and alone/maybe heartless. And I’m not like you, that’s why I’ll go and do what I want”. And the truth is – she really not like them. Technically it’s not Gwen Cooper Show, it’s Torchwood. But all we see is Gwen, her opinions, her reactions, her antics and dramatics. No story can function being this unbalanced. You can’t make sci-fi show about melodramatic heroine (who from time to time tries to be Lara Croft wannabe).
So, I can’t help but think – maybe Torchwood really is better without Gwen.
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It's funny, occasionally coming across the creators'/actors' comments, and wondering if they ever watch their own show. =)
All very good points. To sum up, Gwen's narrow, black and white, very generalised 'human approach' doesn't work well for extraordinary situations, and by never taking time or care to adapt, Gwen constantly obstructs Torchwood's precariously dangerous work.
Just think – even when it’s end of the world outside we see only how team abandons their work and helps Gwen with her personal problems.
=))) That sounds right like a back cover of some asinine teen sitcom. Gwen Explains It All. (Except with aliens.)
sci-fi show where main factors of entertainment should be aliens and adventure
And handsome men kissing! =P
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first things first while i am sure eve is a lovely woman her statement about the gwen being the one to save the world while jack/ianto provided comic relief left me with the the strong urge to check how much rusty kool aid she is drinking. she made a video tape in front of young children for the doctor about how he must be shamed by humans. now for her comic side kicks.
jack- is murderd has a bomb placed in his stomach and then is blown up in his home while knowing that his team and he have been have targeted for death by unkown persons, after becoming a meat puzzle in a cell while his body during a very painful regeneration finds himself being encased in concrete while alive, leads his lover ianto to his death and then murders his grandson confirming all the stories his daughter has heard for her mother about what a monster her father is. just a few of the lighthearted moments jack provided.
let us like at ianto except for the whole dying thing, reminds of the joke "other then that how was the play for mrs. lincoln?"
ianto provided many a much needed chuckle. lost track at how times his sexuality was attacked with words like fag, prevert, gone bender, wth was with the smell naff, forget the compentent ianto of the first 2 seasons the man that conned jack who in countryside tracked the suv and saved tosh despite the fact he is not a field agent, forget the guy who during tkks linked a cell phone to the tower in order for jack to call swanson no the new and improved ianto is the guy he forgot to lock the suv and allowed it to be stolen by some local yobs. odd he then is able to track jacks body and then save jack rhys and all so amazing gwen from her brilliant paln to save jack(is that is an example of her cunning we are doomed) not to forget that ianto is an liar ashamed of his family background.
strange that the only one with ties to children were jack and and ianto but the all so amazing gwen had none.
more to say later but this has given me a headache.
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I hate her to the depth and breadth and height my soul can reach. ;)
(I also loathe her with the passion of a thousand suns.)
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made us wonder if she hadn't gone off already
'Gwen's gone off' - sounds like perishables past-expiry day. =))
Disagree about the reason Gwen was hired, of course. That reason is still shrouded in clouds of mystery for me. Thus, ignoring her co-workers doesn't count as a professional failing, just a personal one (and one cannot seriously predict how her being a rational and genuinly caring person would have changed anything). However, ignoring Jack (along with TW rules and common sense, I'd add) - her commanding officer and a clear superior in knowledge and experience - certainly is unpardonable, especially in the line of such dangerous work. Many a spectacular screw-up with mounting civilian body count has been a derect result of this lovely little 'stubborn streak' of Gwen's. To illustrate... actually, pick just about any episode.
CoE, I'm not even discussing: that's a whole giant subject in itself.
By the by, I can also easily see Rhys acting, in effect, as Anwen's single parent in S4, - by now I almost expect it, even.
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Well, to be fair, I'm pretty sure Gwen's past-expire date should have been somewhere around 'everything changes' so yeah, I'd say she went rotten a LONG time ago.
Yeah, no-one is really sure what Gwen's job actually is, but in the everything changes end scene, Jack says "we could do more to help" and apparently everyone keeps jammering on how Gwen keeps the others human, that she's the 'heart' of Torchwood. She's the supposed to be the carer, so my guess is: she's there to make sure that the others are emotionally healthy enough to consider other people's emotional needs.
In They Keep Killing Suzie she goes on this big fat rant on how they should have paid more attention to their own team, so I'm guessing all human ethics things are Gwen's niche.
It is quite hard to predict what could or would happen if Gwen was a rational genuinly caring person, but what if she was a special ops agent with years of experience in profiling, physchology, gunhandling...those things could have made a much more positive impact than Torchwood taking up even more workin 'helping' people when they function the way they do. It wasn't until they started 'helping' more that the whole thing went to shit.
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Maybe, but in every episode it's only Gwen' emotional needs that have to be considered. And in TKKS it's her opinion that Jack has listen to, the team' needs is secondary to that. So, it's all about Gwen anyway.
Anakin at least had potential, but Gwen has nothing but attitude and creators' favoritism.
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Yeah, when Anakin went bad I was all like "noez Anakinny whats you doin'" If gwen ever goes dark side, it'll be more of a "well, took ya long enough, didn't it?"
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But, do we actually hear much about Gwen's supposedly golden heart in the show? I don't think so; it's mostly the creators' behind-the-scenes talk. Resulting, I suspect, in that on-screen phenomenon of everyone - including Gwen herself - repeatedly ignoring and miraculously forgetting her wrongdoings.
'Not a single real, Torchwood-useful thing' is right. In keeping with the 'corporate' realism line, she would have been fired ages ago. =)
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some of them were, most of them were born from a sense of desperation we hardly ever see in Gwen, except with Abbadon and even thén she did hardly anything redeeming, not to mention that not even 24 hours later she had already forgotten about the person she was trying to save. It's just that parts of the journey feel the same, which is why an evil Gwen makes more sense than a hero Gwen. While Anakin has a lifelong trauma and basic human needs that are severly repressed, not to mention an impressive back-catalogue in heroics, Gwen does not, she just completely disregards others, while it is her job to do so. but yeah, I do have a way of connecting everything to everything so you know.
Yep, the blowfish was up to his gills in cocaïne, it's not difficult to see how he got the two welsh members of the team confused.
That whole condescending attitude of hers towards calm efficiency as necessarily heartless and, somehow, therefore unhelping; assuming that only loudly and very publically expressed emotions are real...
there, that, just that. Calm efficiency is probably what Torchwood needed to keep functioning, The 'heart' of torchwood should be able to see through and talk to his/her colleagues and then calmly, subtletly make actions towards the right directions...and doesn't that just sound like Ianto in adrift...Me'n that blowfish, we really gotta have a talk about mixing people up
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This! The position of "essential without being obvious" person is already taken care of - there is Ianto. Even when Gwen tried to pose as hero, waiving the gun and coming with "smart" plans, Ianto' calm efficiency DID keep Torchwood functioning. That's why Gwen can only be evil mastermind! now, all other roles are taken.
I totally support the idea about poor blowfish confusing two Welsh people))
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She's the supposed to be the carer
Nah, she's the 'office girl, promoted beyond her measure'. I maintain that the Blowfish got his facts mixed up. =)
in the everything changes end scene, Jack says "we could do more to help" and apparently everyone keeps jammering on how Gwen keeps the others human
In Everything Changes, Jack didn't know Gwen well enough to judge her personality, and that comment from him sounded rather offhand to me.
As for how her 'job' as a pillar of empathy came about, I keep thinking back to Day One, where, after having it explained to her that taking a lunch break while the computers run analysis doesn't equal disregarding the case, Gwen turns defensive and resolutely proclaims, and I quote, 'You've been hidden down here too long. Spending so much time with the alien stuff, you've lost what it means to be human.' (What a way to recommend herself to her new collegues on the first day of work!) To which Jack suggests, not impossibly in a half-sarcastic admonishment, that she reminds them.
In They Keep Killing Suzie she goes on this big fat rant on how they should have paid more attention to their own team, so I'm guessing all human ethics things are Gwen's niche.
In TKKS, she commits one of her most idiotic stunts in all the show...
Although, I'm sure Gwen does think that understanding ethics is her exclusive prerogative.
but what if she was a special ops agent with years of experience in profiling, physchology, gunhandling...those things could have made a much more positive impact than Torchwood taking up even more workin 'helping' people
Yeah, 'what if'. =)
That whole condescending attitude of hers towards calm efficiency as necessarily heartless and, somehow, therefore unhelping; assuming that only loudly and very publically expressed emotions are real...
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What was she doing? It wasn't anything to do with security, that much is obvious. Husband always reckoned her ability to stick paper on walls meant she was a female decorator, and a prostitute in her spare time. However, Husband has always been inclined to view Gwen as comic relief and is convinced she couldn't even spell ethics.
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That's kind of a bit mean. =)
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Exactly. And when she went off on a rant about how could they sit there and joke while they had Carys (spelling?) in the cells, I kept wondering why the hell Gwen seemed to think that the team starving themselves and falling into depression would have helped the poor girl in any way. Honestly, a job like that, you take a calm moment to unwind whenever you can grab it, because otherwise you'll end up going insane.
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As for Eve's claim that Ianto was the comic relief, whatever crap she was on at the time, I think i want them because they seem to really make you lose yourself.
Ianto had the woman he loved by mutilated by the Cybermen than she made him believe she could be cured before being killed by his team. Not long after that he was captured, beaten and two secondsfrom being killed by cannibals.
Oh how my sides ached from the laughter. Watching a man lose his loved one and almost lose his life, such comedy.
(I really shouldn't have to add the childish NOT at the end of that do I)
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Got away from my point, sorry. My point was that Davis and Gardner obviously have poor ideas of what humor is and since Eve/Gwen are their favorites, I'm not surprised she thinks the same.
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http://dailylounge.com/?p=287
But back to our discussion. I was thinking about whether or not it was said on screen that Gwen supposed to bring humanity back in Torchwood. And it kind of was, but not in so much words. It’s just that Gwen is the only one who brings up the question about (lack of the) humanity/morale in Torchwood:
- In her speech “you forgot what it means to be human”
- In her attempt to do all talking while playing detective (you know, playing “good cop” role because she is obviously good with people)
- Declaring “Torchwood should do something!”, usually after she f*** up (Carys, Suzie, Abaddon, Flat Holm)
- Being demonstratively angry about Jasmine
- Telling Jack what he should and shouldn’t do (his morale compass?)
- Playing Jack’ “confidant”
- Being randomly compassionate (Suzie, Beth, Nikky Bevan)
- By blaming Jack that Suzie got obsessed about the glove because he didn’t paid attention to her family situation, and blaming him again for his readiness to stop Suzie’ suffering (funny – when he did it, Gwen wasn’t so against the idea anymore)
- Indicating that her team mates are all cold and lonely, but she’s got something better
- Being surprised that Jack “does have a heart”
Anyone wants to continue the list?
In a nutshell – Gwen herself brings up the “care/humanity/morale” issue with attitude “you are lacking this, poor people, but I can make it better”. And every time she fails. Every time she stops at declaration faze and needs outside help. All others just calmly do their job, as it was said here already. But Gwen – Gwen time and again reminds them that they have serious issues with morale and humanity. And I must say - if she supposed to be the moral compass of the team, it was broken at the beginning.
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Yep, same here. The only way the whole "everyone in Torchwood dies young" aspect would have worked is if really everyone in Torchwood died young. If one character (Jack might not necessarily count, because at least he's legitimately immortal, so to speak) gets to be an exception to the 'die young' rule, the audience is justified when they question why this character got to live when the others didn't. Same with the "realism" of the danger of Torchwood. If Torchwood is so damn dangerous, how come Gwen is the only one who hasn't lost anything yet?
And I personally tend to consider character deaths to be the lazy option when it comes to drama. There are cases where it can be justified by the story, but most of the time it feels a bit like "What can we do to shock people? Oh, I know: kill off one of the characters - that'll do it. Right, job done."
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This is true. Usually, in most of the shows I've seen, the actor wants to move on, not because the writers are so uncreative that they can't figure out how to move the plot along.
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How could you have been so wrong! =P
Yes, that old company line of 'heart and soul' of Torchwood couldn't be more ludicrous - I think even her fans agree.
Well, Snow White... Pale chick with no fashion sense (according to Disney), who lived with seven men. =)
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http://cockneyflower.glogster.com/Snow-Glass-Apples-By-Neil-Gaiman/
Link for happiness
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i really hope that through the power of pigreg you will see the like and appreciate gwen for how she is, an incredible flawed brilliant characters
also i hate you