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antigwenallies Oct. 28th, 2009 02:50 am)
onlyoneargess.livejournal.com posting in antigwenallies Oct. 28th, 2009 02:50 am)After Elton has a new article up:
http://www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/10/death-torchwood-queer-visibility
Extract:
Few deaths have been more shocking to gay television viewers than that of Ianto Jones in this summer’s Torchwood: Children Of Earth. His death during the fourth night of the BBC miniseries created a huge backlash, none of which surprised me more than claims that Ianto’s demise was an expression of the show’s homophobia.
ETA: The author has a blog also:
http://polina-skibinskaya.blogspot.com/2
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There has been a huge backlash against TW since it aired, it is also interesting how since it aired and with the backlash against it, how it has not got a season 4. He has written himself into a corner and it will probably end up costing him the show. And as much as he may deny it, the Janto fans have done a hell of a lot of damage to the show and pissing the fans off as well was not the brightest move and it has come back to bite him on the ass. Just shows you what kind of damage you can do by pissing fans and the gay community off.
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Amen to that. Torchwood is where good actors and interesting characters get offed in favour of lesser ones. Sorry, but that's a fact. Burn, Naoko and Gareth are far better actors than Eve - John can be great but can also get easily into histrionics esp. when sharing the scene with someone who's not so much into the subtle method - the thing I dread most about the Jack and Gwen Show is that John and Eve will end up overacting all over each other to death.
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John is a stage actor
Barrowman got better, towards the end of the series, he toned it down.
Myles though, she was already in a soap series before Torchwood...what's her excuse? Soaps, at least from what I remember of Passions, have a lot of close-ups.
...and then there is the Failure to Grow, and that she actually manage to REGRESS in spite of her huge among of screentime and therefore practice. WTF? For the sake of her baby, I'm glad that there is a welfare system in place.
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First, just because somebody is gay, doesn't mean they can't be homophobic.
Second, as RTD doesn't care about plot continuity or character development, it definitely wasn't about Ianto feeling safe being gay in the hub, but once going outside feeling insecure or ashamed about that. RTD wrote Ianto the way he wanted him, not the way he logically should continue to be according the way he was in season two.
As for coming out to his family, I didn't see him being ashamed or afraid about himself or Jack and their relationship, it looked to me like he is not very close to his sister or he would have told her earlier. It also looked like he wanted to talk to somebody about Jack, and his sister was the most available person. I imagine, he used to speak to Toshiko, and it looked to me that those two were much closer than he ever was with his sister. (And honestly, can you imagine him having a chat about Jack with Gwen?)
Third, I don't think Ianto's death was meant to be homophobic either. That is if Ianto really had to die because of lousy writing and not because RTD wanted to make the show less gay and therefore more accepted in the USA.
There are quite a few occasions when homophobia was shown and it definitely was homophobia not Ianto's insecurity, though.
Do you remember when Gwen and Andy went to tell his family he died and Andy's prime concern was if she knows he was gay as well? Btw this also shows that even PC Andy knew about relationship between Jack and Ianto, as he is referring to Ianto as the gay one. (and no, this is not homophobic either, is it) As I highly doubt Jack and Ianto would be showing their relationship in front of other people during their working time, he (Andy) must have seen them together somewhere outside working hours.
Other occasion was claiming by Clem that he is able to smell queer people. The author of the article got that, not the fact that after Clem said this, all the other straight characters (including the Torchwood heart and empathic one) were standing around laughing. Surely if Gwen is Ianto's friend, she could have said something to Clem, couldn't she? (if somebody said something like that to my friend I definitely would say something)
Fourth, Gwen's and Jack's deep feelings towards each other. Yeah, because apparently Jack always waits for other people to make the first step, and Gwen never actually wanted to have a relationship with him, she has never made a step like that, has she? (sorry for the sarcasm)
One of the many examples was the scene from KKBB when she told Jack about her engagement and essentially offered herself on a silver plate. If Jack's feelings for her were so deep, unlike for Ianto, why did he congratulate her and left instead of declaring undying love? Well, the answer is obvious, because he already said he had come back for Ianto and then made the first step by inviting him for a date.
Fifth, and my final point is what the author missed or wasn't aware about. Torchwood according to RTD is Gwen's show. So he had to get rid of all the other characters that are more popular then her, that is everybody else. I am confident that he would make Torchwood without Captain Jack Harkness if it was at the very least possible. So the conclusion would be that Ianto's death wasn't homophobic but Ianto-phobic.
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I mean, the man has no imagination.
I think they main thing is, which i don't think she pointed out is, RTD got rid of Jack and Ianto because we actually liked them and liked them more than his favourite Gwen, so we had to be punnished and have her shoved down our throats as punnishment.
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I wouldn't say he has no imagination. Just that he has a very little. That is the reason why he has to plagiarise other people's ideas. If he has an idea of his own, he is not able to develop it properly.
In his blind infatuation he didn't realise there is no show without John (and Gareth for a lot of fans). Showing contempt to your fans, who are basically your bosses equals professional suicide. I wouldn't be surprised if we won't hear about him for a long time.
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Doing what he has done to the show and to the fans is suicide but his ego is so big he thinks that everyone will like what he has done and I think with the backlash to COE and the fact that there isn't a season 4, it might be getting to him that not everything goes his way.
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He always says that he writes for himself not for fans. Well I think he will learn what that means when there won't be anybody interested in his work.
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on writing for one self
a)Nobody's salary is depending on me
b)I don't lie about what I write about, there are clear warning labels.
In agreeing to write for BBC, RTD was agreeing that he'll not ONLY write for himself, he'll write in a way that will bring BBC money, you can do BOTH, you have to WORK HARD to do both.
RTD wrote his depressing crap, and he dressed it up as campy fun to Janto fans, that is dishonest, that is worse that stuffing your jeans with socks while on the prowl. Depression is already higher among us queers as it is, not saying you SHOULDN'T write it, but damn, he's a sore storm who tricked people who doesn't want the depressing stuff into it. What the hell is his damage that he wants to shove people's faces in it?
RTD sucks for two reasons
a) Dishonesty, the way he said thigns
b) Wangst, what he has to say. It's nothing new. I hate the ending of M, which I felt placed more blame on the parents of the victims (particularly the mothers) than the pedobeast I wanted to see stoned...but at least it tells mothers to watch their children more closely. CoE's message, the way it ends, is that humanity sucks and all you could do is run. People already knew that things are rotten, but that's not ALL, and what's rotting, we can do something about it, where's that?
RTD is the Rob Liefield, except that Rob knows how to poke fun at himself. He rips off Joss and salivates in the dark mood of Alan Moore, Completely Missing The Point that Joss and Moore's work was about WHAT'S dark, and what to do about it, hope and all that. In Jossverse, the people of LA didn't give up even when they were in hell! In V for Vendetta, Valerie didn't give away her integrity, and her letter starts with her assurance that she loves the reader, and ends with her hope that there will be roses again, and that she hopes when there are roses, the reader will be able to see them. Valerie's letter still makes me cry, every single time, in a good way, like, Rilo Kiley's I Never..."What makes you weep, don't have to make you weak".
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Once you post something in the open, you should be prepared for people not agreeing with you. You definitely should not mock anybody before they actually say anything or state directly you want only comments from people who agree with you.
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- Jack has feelings for Gwen - check
- she is in denial why Jack and Gwen are not together - check
- doesn't tolerate Janto or Janto fans - check
She is a Gwacker, isn't she? She must be one of the people who got their hopes up when Ianto died but then Jack left. She is scared that in possible Season 4 Ianto will come back and it will be the end for her non-existent romance.
I'm not surprised that there are people who said thery are not going to watch Torchwood without their favourite character. There isn't any other reason why to watch it.
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Then I guess I'm not a Torchwood fan, I'm an Ianto fan
I always don't get why people are so obsess with what other fans think, scroll. If I don't like a fic, I scroll, or I spork it in a badfic comm but obviously I don't tell the author about it. Likewise, I'm not going to tell a Gwack fan to his/her face why it's fail, let them have their own corner.
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Re: Then I guess I'm not a Torchwood fan, I'm an Ianto fan
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That always really confuses me. I mean, isn't everyone entitled to their own reasons for liking a TV show? Me, I almost always watch shows because of certain characters - I definitely watched TW because of Ianto, with Jack and Tosh being an added bonus. And I don't think I've got any obligation to keep watching a show when everything I loved about it is gone.
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I agree that the idea behind COE was to turn Torchwood into the rejected Excalibur, which was about a Welsh WPC who stumbled upon aliens. Unfortunately most fans didn't want to see this or Gwen, a fact that must have seriously pissed off RTD.
COE had high viewing figures but I think those who viewed it without previously seeing any Torchwood thought it was the end. I have asked a number of people {I know hundreds} and that is what they thought. They didn't think it was intended to herald a new Season of Torchwood. They thought it was an independent mini series.
I will be surprised if there is any more Torchwood at all. If there is it will be a long time coming. I think the BBC do not want to fund it because of the expense and John, basically, didn't like Euros Lynns directing style, and seems to have been rather unsatisfied by some aspects of COE. {According to his book}. RTD seems to have completely lost interest in it, having presumably at last realized that nothing will make most of us love Gwen. Eve is busy with other matters.
I am starting to write a fic in which Jack meets and joins "The Agency", a group of folk who live on a far off Planet occupied by many different humanoids and other creatures, including dinosaurs. Gwen is mentioned and not in an enthusiastic way. I have it planned that a some point she will turn up, plus Rhys and offspring.
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To me he wrote DT role as he was in Casanova, which he(RTD) wrote three episodes for. It wasn't a switch for him to write the Doctor as a love interest for Rose and Martha.
During Chris's series, Rose was just another companion for the Doctor. There may have been love there, but more of a friendship kind of way. In David's there's a total left turn. Rose and Martha were seen as as "wife prospects" for the Doctor.
Now Jack may have flirted with the Doctor when he was in Chris's series, but to me that was all that it ever was. In David's was treated like Rose and Martha's, more boyfriend material, maybe "husband prospect" too.
But that's not what happens in the Whoverse. The Doctor is doomed to travel throughout time and space, always alone and even with people around him, he's always lonely.
In Torchwood, Jack had found someone who he could find happiness with, Ianto. Then RTD took it all away from him.
RTD may like to think he's a big fish in a small pond, but here in the States, he's just a little fish in a big pond. Wonder how long it takes the major studios, (besides BBCA) decides he's not a major player and show's him the door.
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Internalized Homophobia
It's not just pausing before we confess we have attraction to members of our same sex, lying about being attracted to members of opposite sex (or if we are bisexual, always remembering to mention one but not the other)...it includes things like, before Gay Dumbledore and before 2004 and before Ugly Betty (which shows a rare gay mentorship), things like always being conscious of the way one acts around a child, and crossing occupations like teachers off one's list.
It's internalizing the belief that as long as we are queer, we can never be happy. If we want that handsome hero and/or to be married to a man and maybe have a kid, we got to be a woman. Or if we want to be with the heroine or be married to a woman and maybe have a kid we got to be a man.
For all of the above, I view RTD as that sad and creepy little girl form The Ring, I can see SOME of where he came from, and it sucks that we have a culture that has imprinted so deeply, that he can't see queers having happy ending, the worse happens (like in DW: "Midnight") and hell, the queers even bring down the people around them...
...but in necessity, there are people worse of then him, and so I don't have a lot of sympathy since while he is probably not feeling well, he's using what power he have to make it WORSE, like that little girl from The Ring. I want him back down the well.
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http://www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/10/death-torchwood-queer-visibility?page=0,4#comment-97771
I urge people with an account on After Elton to go there and reply to her silly views. She claims she doens't get why people is upset because Torchwood HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE JACK AND GWEN SHOW!!! AND THAT IANTO WAS NOTHING SPECIAL TO JACK, HE WAS JUST ONE IN A LONG LIST.
There are, however, a few things I DON'T understand.
1. Complaints that Torchwood is a "Jack and Gwen show." It has never pretended otherwise, so why the surprise? The show started with Gwen - the others are barely in the first episode of the first season. You might not like her character - that's fair. But I don't think it's fair to be mad at the show for continuing to be what it's always been in the first place.
2. Assumption that Ianto was somehow special in the long line of Jack's lovers. We got to see Jack and Ianto's relationship develop before our eyes, so that makes it special to us. It's natural for viewers to relate to the character they see rather than characters they only hear about - but can we really assume this relationship (which Jack has always treated somewhat cavalierly) is more important to Jack than his relationship with Estelle, or with Alice's mother, or with the acrobat twins, or with the unnamed woman he married, or with Proust? Or with the Doctor, who doesn't look at Jack twice, but for whom Jack has abandoned his team (including his lover) several times? Again, I understand where the viewers' attachment comes from, but I think the whole "Janto" thing is, for the most part, a projection.
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WTF? What's this shit doing on AfterElton?
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She admits she doesn't get it!!! Well, it's blatantly obvious she doesn't get even the basic of how things work.
Stating that she can see where the fans attachment to the character of Ianto comes from - projection(???) - but doesn't get that right because we as viewers and fans are attached to Ianto and NOT to all the others in Jack's back catalogue of past lovers (or next catalogue of future lovers, really) it's what will bring Torchwood to lose both fans and viewers.
Stating that she can see why people maybe don't like Gwen but, hey! it's always been Gwen right from the start!!! means that TPTB are so blind and ignorant that they can't even do their job and do marketing research and, when the case, change focus from a character to another the public really finds interesting and falls in love with.
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2. As John Barrowman said himself, one of the things he likes about Jack is the way he (Jack) adores Ianto. Captain Jack Harkness is a man who was willing to sacrifice the whole Earth's population of children to save his lover. That, I am sure, shows how deeply and thoroughly he loves Ianto.
I can understand that their relationship (Jack and Ianto) is shown more in subtext in the show, compared to Gwen and Rhys, however there is no doubt that they have relationship. Just because they don't profess love to each other every five minutes doesn't mean they are not in love.
And one more thing that is wrong about the article. Ianto is not gay. He is bisexual. Or has she forgotten Lisa, Ianto's girlfriend? We all saw what Ianto was willing to do to save her, I am sure he wouldn't bother if she was just a phase or a cover.
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I didn't start watching TW for a bit of homoerotic fun...the fact that a same sex relationship built up was a draw. RTD can sit there and talk about straight people (yes, I am straight) not 'understanding'- remember that stuff about 'I've lived this' or something? Well, does it ever occur to him that MOST folk these days DO work with gay people/live next door/have best friends who are gay? This is as much of my life as it is his in many ways. As far as I'm concerned, the 2 (possibly more!) communities are NOT separate!
What really DID annoy me incidentally (like several commenters to this article) was:
a) lazy, rip-off writing.
b) the (yet again) lazy idea that "a death was needed"
c) the belief of the writers that a crap confrontation with Rhiannon about "going bender" showed a developement in J & I's relationship, meaning they could happily "off Ianto", with all loose ends tied up. Loose ends tied up? It just made it all worse.
d) In fact, there was character REGRESSION in CoE for all apart from Gwen. In the first episode I couldn't believe all that "couple" crap...Where was confident, stun gun, avant garde, "he always cheats" Ianto?
e) another commenter commented that the writers were probably trying to remove the "gayness" after the amazing popularity of "Janto" fanfiction, and get the show back on an even keel...It wouldn't surprise me in the least!
f) "Jack has to lose Ianto to scarifice Stephen" No he doesn't! creepy MOD/government scientist (forgotten his name) would just have had Jack held back by Johnson and Co, and gone ahead with the sound waves anyway! This would have shown Jack in a better light AND (if Ianto hadn't been 'fridged), there would have been a future storyline exploring Jack's mental torture and Ianto's understanding (NO I don't mean sex, I mean a proper bit of grown up drama perhaps?).
Is CoE homophobic?
You can't have a show where every gay character is inviolable/immortal, but then again can you have a show where pregnant women never DIE, for example? Ultimately I DO think it was, if not homophobic, yet another subtle message that "these gay folk" don't have a happy ever after. I wasn't EXPECTING a happy ever after, perhaps just a bit more character development (in the series, I'm not including books and radio- most viweres rather than fans have no comprehension of these)....
Right, I'm off now before I get to point z)......
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