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antigwenallies Sep. 9th, 2009 07:29 pm)
hohaiyee.livejournal.com posting in antigwenallies Sep. 9th, 2009 07:29 pm)Heebies Jeebies, I've heard the same argument about wife-beating, and it's still wrong.
I've actually liked a lot of fucked up characters, and I think the worse thing about Gwen, isn't the character herself, but her rationalizing fans. It's scary. In fact, I think rabid Gwen fan is definitely on the list of warning signs of people I'll never date (like, people who subscribe to Maximum, love the skin, but the rape jokes are just ew).
It just sends me the shudder that there are people out there, people who actually might be with other people, who think it's okay to cheat on someone as long as you never do it again, and oh, retconning, fucking SCARY.
I need a cup of tea now, and no retcon please.
I've also thought of several more Gwen-free team match-ups
1. Suzie never went crazy
2. Both Ianto and Lisa survived Canary Wharf intact, got their way into Torchwood 3 after Suzie is dead and Jack needs a replacement on his now three people team that he ignores the work for his evil sexy female twin Torchwood One aspect. Possibly Jack/Ianto/Lisa because I think Jack is less angsty in threesomes (also why we need more Jack/Ianto/Tosh, but no Gwen please, she has Rhys! I would have been okay with Jack/Rhys/Gwen if Ianto was with Tosh cause they are cute together, but after CoE, I don't want Gwack in any form.)
3. Ianto is trained to replace Suzie, and Eugene is brought in to do the admin work...Eugene was good with math eh? Without Gwen dismissing Eugune and Andy, Challengers to her, the team actually takes Eugene seriously.
4. John Hart: Without Gwen who let John snuck up on her, Ianto was paired with John, rebluffs him, they figure out the bomb, and then Jack was with John when they found Gray, and then John joins their team as the weapons expert, and it's Jack/Ianto/John.
Gwen-Free isn't a perfect world, I think Carys would have died, without feeding she would have turned into girljam, but a lot more people would have lived, so in the end, it's the better ending. Likewise, Max would have killed more people, because without Gwen, they wouldn't have done something so dangerous like bringing Suzie back, but they do catch Max several mores down the road.
That friend of Rhys who was eaten at Gwen's wedding? He'll be alive without Gwen drawing a cannibal to her wedding. I actually don't blame Gwen for this one because she was compromise, but ah, I hate how the team become stupid around her. It's like the Bart Simpson sitting arrangement effect.
...and questions, if Gwen had poisoned Rhys in "Combat", like, to death, because I suspect that the dosage actually varies, and if Gwen stole it out of medical bay she totally could have OD Rhys, what would have happened from there? What would Jack do? Especially in light of Suzie?
I've actually liked a lot of fucked up characters, and I think the worse thing about Gwen, isn't the character herself, but her rationalizing fans. It's scary. In fact, I think rabid Gwen fan is definitely on the list of warning signs of people I'll never date (like, people who subscribe to Maximum, love the skin, but the rape jokes are just ew).
It just sends me the shudder that there are people out there, people who actually might be with other people, who think it's okay to cheat on someone as long as you never do it again, and oh, retconning, fucking SCARY.
I need a cup of tea now, and no retcon please.
I've also thought of several more Gwen-free team match-ups
1. Suzie never went crazy
2. Both Ianto and Lisa survived Canary Wharf intact, got their way into Torchwood 3 after Suzie is dead and Jack needs a replacement on his now three people team that he ignores the work for his evil sexy female twin Torchwood One aspect. Possibly Jack/Ianto/Lisa because I think Jack is less angsty in threesomes (also why we need more Jack/Ianto/Tosh, but no Gwen please, she has Rhys! I would have been okay with Jack/Rhys/Gwen if Ianto was with Tosh cause they are cute together, but after CoE, I don't want Gwack in any form.)
3. Ianto is trained to replace Suzie, and Eugene is brought in to do the admin work...Eugene was good with math eh? Without Gwen dismissing Eugune and Andy, Challengers to her, the team actually takes Eugene seriously.
4. John Hart: Without Gwen who let John snuck up on her, Ianto was paired with John, rebluffs him, they figure out the bomb, and then Jack was with John when they found Gray, and then John joins their team as the weapons expert, and it's Jack/Ianto/John.
Gwen-Free isn't a perfect world, I think Carys would have died, without feeding she would have turned into girljam, but a lot more people would have lived, so in the end, it's the better ending. Likewise, Max would have killed more people, because without Gwen, they wouldn't have done something so dangerous like bringing Suzie back, but they do catch Max several mores down the road.
That friend of Rhys who was eaten at Gwen's wedding? He'll be alive without Gwen drawing a cannibal to her wedding. I actually don't blame Gwen for this one because she was compromise, but ah, I hate how the team become stupid around her. It's like the Bart Simpson sitting arrangement effect.
...and questions, if Gwen had poisoned Rhys in "Combat", like, to death, because I suspect that the dosage actually varies, and if Gwen stole it out of medical bay she totally could have OD Rhys, what would have happened from there? What would Jack do? Especially in light of Suzie?
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There is that
When Carys became such a big threat, it's important to think more about the people she can and did kill, over her being a person.
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Or for the same reason (i.e. not knowing anything about retcon), she could have not give him enough, and he could have remember the cheating and the druging...it would have been interresting to see ;)
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Best analogy ever!
Being in the same room as Gwen would make your IQ drop several points.
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And of course they're the same people who would probably say that if Rhys had slipped Gwen a roofie or raised his hand to her that she should have left him immediately.
What gets me most about Gwen's drugging Rhys is that it happened after she'd seen what an excessive dose of it could do to somebody.
Now I know that there was some juggling of episode order in both seasons, but TKKS was always intended to air before Combat, so when Gwen dosed Rhys, she knew what the possible side effects could be. And hands up anybody who thinks that that would have been the only time she did it. Oh please. If Rhys had forgiven Gwen like she asked, I am convinced that she would have gone the 'tell Rhys and then retcon him' route any time she'd had a bad day. Hell, maybe that's why she was a little freaked in TKKS. Not because she'd been dosed once herself, but because she'd been using it on Rhys to get things off her chest about Torchwood.
...and questions, if Gwen had poisoned Rhys in "Combat", like, to death, because I suspect that the dosage actually varies, and if Gwen stole it out of medical bay she totally could have OD Rhys, what would have happened from there? What would Jack do? Especially in light of Suzie?
I suppose the sedative side of the drug could kill him, but what if instead of wiping the last few hours, Gwen managed to wipe out the last few years of Rhys's memory. Imagine if he'd forgiven her, passed out, and then woken up and not known who the hell she was :-D
Imagine Gwen having to explain that to Jack!
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a) Gwen knows what Retcon can do. And not happpy with just Retconning Rhys to absolve her own guilt, she happily has a wedding in S2 which anyone with any COMMON SENSE would surely realise would only end in mass retconning for ALL of your family and friends.
b) Any "bad" behavior from Rhys would have resulted in everyone saying "poor Gwen, leave this violent, adulterous (whatever) boyfriend."
c) I WOULD feel assaulted if I knew I had been drugged to forget a confession which was made for purely selfish reasons (and believe me I have been drugged up for purely GOOD reasons more times than most people have had hot dinners).
d) If you can drug your partner to "forget" once, how many other times would you be tempted to do it? Hence my complete disbelief, when in S2, GC/W didn't want to Retcon Rhys.
e) considering her complete knowledge of VIRTUALLY ANYTHING, how on earth DID she get the dosage right in Combat so that Rhys wasn't left a gibbering vegetable/ didn't remeber her/remebered the entire conversation and drugging/became a homicidal or pshycopathic lunatic? Was it just luck? did she work it out and THINK?
That's why my entire family is annoyed with the character rework of Gwen in CoE!
I'm off to have a glass of Pinot Grigio, I'm so angry with it all...
PS on a lighter note- finished work early and was surprised to find GDL in a repeat of "Rosemary and Thyme"...mmmm....(4pm Granada TV), so i guess not all can be bad!
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Well it was either going to end in a mass Retcon, or Gwen was going to have to spend the rest of her life pretending to her family and friends that she'd lost a baby. I mean, seriously, it took her half the freaking episode to think about what she was going to have to say after the wedding day?
d) If you can drug your partner to "forget" once, how many other times would you be tempted to do it? Hence my complete disbelief, when in S2, GC/W didn't want to Retcon Rhys.
Like I said, I'm sure that if she'd gotten away with it, she'd have done it again and again. (assuming that that was even the first time she'd done it)
That's why my entire family is annoyed with the character rework of Gwen in CoE!
Children of Earth was a five hour pilot for Gwenwood. Look at the amount of screen-time Gwen got during the eps. I'm still bugged about the fact that Ianto's efforts in tracking down Jack and rescuing him happened pretty much off-screen except for the final fork-lift attack, whereas Gwen gets all the information she needs literally handed to her, but still we have to see her making her way to London, meeting Lois, making a half assed attempt to get into the base (an attempt which would have resulted in her capture).
Really, this was a prelude to Gwenwood.
I'm off to have a glass of Pinot Grigio, I'm so angry with it all...
Not a wine drinker myself, I find chocolate to be an acceptable substitute ;-)
I have that ep of R&T, but I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, not even just the GDL parts.
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Uggggh. Or as I have posited on NUMEROUS occasions (I'm quite repetitive when I get something into my head!)..."Gwen's Angels". Starring Gwen Williams as the not so reclusive (that wouldn't give enough opportunities for so-called irresistible "doe eyes") head of Torchwood 3, and her Angels: Lois Habiba (she changed her mind- there's not much at the Jobcentre since the global recession and the collapse of society as we know it), Agt Johnson (now with "NEW added humanity" after the events of CoE) and Alice Harkness (now determined to battle the forces of evil after the tragic death of her son)! Or perhaps they WILL drag Martha in for that last role!
And, last but not least,Rhys Williams as 'Bosley' but with extra child care duties and a creche in the old Tourist Office....
Is it too early for Pinot Grigio (10.15 am)? I think I need a drink now; I'm not fond of chocolate, I'm afraid!
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chocolate rec time!
...but regarding chocolate, maybe you've been turned off by cheap 'chocolate' that is actually 99% sugar. Ever tried quality dark chocolate? It should have cacao butter at the very least, and even better, chocolate liquor!
If you like alcohol, you might like the rich smoothness that are the Bossner (http://www.bossner-cigars.de/en/bossner.html) line of chocolates, at some stores comes with plain-dark-milk and with raisins or rum raisins and/or whole hazelnuts. Most of them are good, EXCEPT for dark chocolate with rum riasins, the reason is, rum is rich but bitter, and together with bitter dark chocolate it is too much.
A lighter, richer, but sort of buttery chocolate, would be cocoacamino (http://www.cocoacamino.com/en/index.php), fair trade organic, with cane juice in place of sugar. I actually like the smell of sugar, though not too much, but cane juice has this sweet light flavour to it.
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Re: chocolate rec time!
I'm afraid I find the mind altering effects somewhat soothing and inspirational...
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It doesn't melt in your mouth! There is a waxy texture in the bar form...
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those argument chokes me with rage, over the illogica fish in the face
Jack retcons people in the course of duty, much like how a police officer might rough up someone who was resisting arrest, but to do this to your spouse for selfish reasons is ASSAULT.
Seriously, I wouldn't dislike her so much if it's just cheating. To me, cheating is a shitty thing to do, but it's something done to the relationship, not the person. The other person should know about it, because when they agree to the relationship everyone had agreed to conditions that will be held to, like, no sleeping around when you've agreed to be monogamous.
...but cheating isn't remotely evil, unless you expose your partner to STD. Mindwiping Rhys however, is evil, it's something done to a person it is a violating act.
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Re: those argument chokes me with rage, over the illogica fish in the face
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Re: those argument chokes me with rage, over the illogica fish in the face
As you say, its all about agreement, and I never saw indication in the script where Rhys wanted Gwen to shag her colleagues, reveal the details and then get drugged to forget!
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In a world without Gwen... such a wonderful idea.
I kinda liked Suzie. I would have liked to see more of her character. If Suzie still died, I don't think Ianto would have been a good replacement. I would have liked to see a scientist brought in to replace her. Someone whose knowledge would cover what Tosh and Owen don't know.
On Lisa's death... My icon is of Hakkai from Saiyuki. He lost his significant other and without that event he wouldn't be the same man he is the manga/anime. I think Ianto shares that in common with Hakkai. The death of Lisa gave more of a human face to what happened at Canary Warf and was a defining moment for Ianto. So, I wouldn't want to see her alive on the show unless some other consequence of Canary Warf was shown, like PTSD for Ianto.
I don't think Jack would be less angsty in a threesome. He has emotional issues from living as long as he has. I like characters with baggage, issues, personality quirks, etc. (Some of the best threesome fic I've read is from the Saiyuki fandom. I like stories that keep everything that make up the three guys, including their issues, while making the threesome work. It makes for an interesting read IMO.)
John is an interesting character. I have a hard time seeing him stick in one place for too long though. He does like Jack though, so I could see him sticking around for a while. Jack has a way of drawing people into his team, maybe John would succumb to the pull of Jack and Torchwood and stay?
I never thought about the possibility of Gwen poisoning Rhys with the wrong dosage. The show never went into dosing whether it was one size for adults and one size for children or however it goes.
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Re: In a world without Gwen... such a wonderful idea.
I don't really care for John either. Whenever he's on all I can think of is gay Spike with dyed hair. Plus there was something about Spike that John doesn't have.
Gwen was just annoying until she retconned Rhys. Totally distaste until she sat with Jack in EOD as if she was his grieving widow. Then my dislike turned to loathing.