Thoughts

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

Hello,
I lurk about here, and wanted to share some thoughts, and maybe it'll generate some discussion...or something.

I was sludging through FF.net to find fic, when I found a Gwack fan. Being the curious person I am, I clicked on their profile to see specifics of their opinion. I was shocked (more so than expected). This person wanted Rhys to die and Ianto to "leave" Jack alone (because of course Jack is at the mercy or Ianto and has no chance to say "no").

Now I've been a slasher close to 10 years now, so I can't begrudge them the fantasy; I've spent most of the time on their side of the fence in different fandoms. But from my experience most slashers don't wish harm in cannon to befall the girl interfering with the slash pairing. They tend to just ignore stuff or rewrite it to work for them, although the girl is usually better characterized than Gwen is. Do hetters feel entitled because most media has their type of pairings in the spotlight? Or is it just Gwackers?

On one other note why do Gwackers in the need to explain why their pairing is better seem to disregard parts of Jack's character? Why not just say I like it better, it may or may not make sense but that's my point of view. I don't think I've seen many slashers try to rationalize their non-cannon pairing; say why they like it yes, rationalize don't think so.

I mean there are always haters in any fandom, but I don't think I've ever seen it so "totally" divided. Majority of the Janto people hate or at least don't like Gwen. Majority of the Gwack people hate Ianto. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

Now what I really really want to share is this thought/question"
If RTD = Gwen does that mean RTD wants to f*** Jack? Would he not assassinate characters if John gave him some?

Well I hope that wasn't totally disjointed, and made some sense.

*Edit- To clarify, I do know not everyone fits into the categories I talked about here, it's part of the reason I used majority to describe them instead of all. Because regardless most of my experiences have leaned towards what I've observed.*

Comments

[idamus.livejournal.com]

I don't know about other fandoms, I only read Torchwood (occasionally crossovers within the Whoverse) but in the few Gwackfics I accidentally found my way into, Gwackers do tend to bash Ianto in a way that is way out of line, often going so far as to bash Gareth too. As for RTD=Gwen I don't know, Russel has always been honest about fancying Gareth, but I've never heard anything about John/Jack

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

the RTD=Gwen was not entirely meant to taken seriously. I don't mean RTD literally likes Jack/John. There's apparently been somethings (such as saying he thinks he'd be like Gwen if he was a girl) that makes some think that he's (for lack of a better way to put it) inserted himself into Gwen's character. Thus if he's inserted himself into Gwen and Gwen wants in Jack's pants....

Now to be fair the bashing here is a bit out of line too (death of Gwen) but we at least have something to build the bash on.

[suellen128.livejournal.com]

I read a lot of different fandoms, and most of them I don't mind reading the occiasonal Het *some of them are very good* but its really only in TW that I can't stand reading Gwack but maybe its do with them forcing Gwen onto us or maybe its because I stumbled onto a disgusting version of Gwack which was so cruel to Ianto, I stopped reading stories for a good while.

I have also noticed the increase of Gwack lovers defending their choice in such a horrific manner it leaves me shocked and angry that they're are writers like that and the people who agree that Ianto is not worthy of being near Jack or even in the same universe as him.

Thats not to say that people who hate Gwen don't sometimes do things that are just not right, but I have to admit I'm not a Gwen lover and this isn't based on a following a trend, It's based on what I feel and how I connect through a character, and just Gwen rubs me the wrong way. Some of her scenes in TW are good and I will give credit where I think personally it's deservered, but when its RTD say "I don't listen to the fans" then saying in another scentence "But I love Gwen, as she is what I think I would be like if I was a girl" I get a bit angry, and he doesn't seem to relize that it gives fuel to the debate that has near everybody been drawn into.

okay, kinda waffled on a bit....opps

p.s Some Gwack's are very judgemental, I've got a few upsetting and nasty comments for my stories on Gwen. I don't do it back to their stories.

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

I totally agree.

As far as anti-Gwen people, sometimes I think the death of Gwen stories are a bit much, but that's just me.

I also think Gwen has her uses (as I like to say it). There are times that she does something useful, however her character for me is a bit like stuck up, superior feeling mary sue.

On Het, I've read several het pairings before and enjoy them. I read the pairing I'm drawn to whether it's het or slash (though more often slash). I like characters and for me Gwen is not a character I really care about, she doesn't come off as a good person.

[likemycoffee.livejournal.com]

To be fair i haven't read much Gwack because it does nothing for me but i don't hate Gwen. I don't understand the vitriol that some Gwack fans have towards Ianto. I can only assume that it is based in jealousy because Janto is the canon relationship, usually in fanfic the slash pairings that exist are not based in canon.

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

But still slashers for the most part seem to suck it up and not attack (most times, those that aren't haters) the one in the actual relationship. Why do they think they're so superior that they can't just accept cannon and in fic ignore the parts that contradict their view (the obvious Janto scenes, because some of the ones that are more subtle could be taken as close friendship). This kinda bothers me that just because their het and not cannon they seem to think they can tear apart another character

Also just curious if you don't hate Gwen why do you visit antigwenallies?

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

I hate Gwen and not because of Janto. I hate people who lie, cheat, disrespect their lovers, coworkers and bosses, screw things up and not suffer any consequences, act like they're above everyone else and does whatever they want, hurting others while they come out smelling like roses. I will read nothing Gwacky. I can't stand scenes where she appears competent because they are few and far between and are negated by so many other scenes where she's whiny, throwing a tantrum or just being stupid (doesn't know what a gps is or been there a year but hasn't heard of UNIT).

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to imply that any sort of connection to being anti-Gwen and being a Janto fan, just that most Janto fans don't like Gwen not necessarily for her making Doe eyes at Jack.

You kinda want to know what planet she's lives on to not know a GPS, and as for UNIT; I suspect that she doesn't read anything work related as is often implied in fics.

[jennelldhalrbj.livejournal.com]

"Would he not assassinate characters if John gave him some?"

Sorry to seem dim but what does this sentence mean?

As for Gwen, I have two problems with her:
1. She is not written very well. In fact bloody awful most of the time, in my opinion.
2. Regardless of how she acts in other programs Eve Myles plays Gwen like she is in a Soap, and I don't like Soaps. That is, everything she does is kinda over the top and exaggerated. All that eye popping and wild sobbing puts me off.

As for Gwack. I had an exchange of views on YouTube some time ago about a Gwack vid. I pointed out very politely that Gwen was not with Jack, she was married to Rhys. The answer was "I know, but I like her with Jack." Misguided but polite.

So RTD would like to be like Gwen if he was female? All I can say about that is Thank the Lord he isn't, and if he really is eager to get into John's Pants, I feel I ought to say to him that John has a very gorgeous partner and has he looked in a mirror lately, because when I saw him he looked a overweight sloppily dressed mess and I wouldn't go anyplace with him unless it was very very dark.

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

What I meant with that sentence if John(Jack), to put it politely "spent the night with him" would he not break his toys and assassinate characters.

For Eve's acting I almost wondering if it's partly do to the directing she gets in Torchwood (direction from RTD since he thinks Gwen is perfect)

If he is attracted to John I think it's likely more like a pipe dream attraction. Knowing it wouldn't happen.

[emzbuckley.livejournal.com]

I have to say, i don't think i have met a fandom that has as many fights as this one does to be honest. I have been a scifi fan for 20 years and i have come across anything like it. All the other shows i have been following haven't had this much fighting, even when it was het vs slash nothing as bad as this. I mean, some of the comments between some of the janto fans and the gwack fans have been aweful. On the torchwood forum, they had to shut one of the threads down which was supposed to be discussion thread for both pairings because it was so bad and people were acusing people of being one thing or another. In my opinion, if you don't like the pairing, you don't have to attack the people who do or vis versa, no one is asking them to be there or read what they say. Its like the people who attacked this group because they are Gwen fans and we aren't, there is no need for it.

I don't like Gwen because frankly she as a person disgusts me and to be honest, if i had been in TW, i would have probably of slapped her or told her some home truths. Its the whole, she is perfect and everyone else is flawed and she can do what she likes because she's perfect. I mean, season 1 she was annoying but season 2 she just pissed me off and season 3, well, lets not go there. LOL! I also don't think Gwen would be as bad if they actual had a person who could actually act but Eve can't act. She doesn;t have that extra gear like john, gareth, naoko and burn had, her acting hits a certain mark and that's it and as much as RTD says she is a great actress, she's not. She's over the top and thinks that widening her eyes and opening her mouth shows some sort of emotion and it doesn't. Its also with some of the things she is meant to say, take the speech in meat, reading it she had a point but it was her acting, she went for the big shouting and thought it made it dramatic and heartfelt but if that had been given to a proper actress, they would have done it with less shouting and made you feel it. That is one of the problems, she doesn't make you feel it and also, she doesn't convince you that there is something there or what she is seeing. It was very obvious in the last ep of COE, when they did the close ups, you looked at her eyes and they were dead, you weren't convinced she was seeing something, the woman who played Delen in B5 convinced you that she was seeing the ships and everything, even when she was looking at a green screen. I think the reason people don't like Gwen comes down to:

Bad acting,
Bad writing,
Bad characterisation,
Pushing her down people's throats.

Hang on a mo.

[emzbuckley.livejournal.com]

As for RTD, my mum made an interesting point the other day. Has anyone noticed the similarities between his two favorite characters, Sarah Jane and Gwen? They are both very homely, they both have families, they both think they are incharge, they both think they are the heart and the humanity and they both think they know better than others. Now after doing psychology, In my opinion, he has a mother complex. If you look at those two characters, which he fawns over and then you read Jungs definition of it, they match.

The mother complex is a potentially active component of everyone's psyche, informed first of all by experience of the personal mother, then by significant contact with other women and by collective assumptions. The constellation of a mother complex has differing effects according to whether it appears in a son or a daughter.

Typical effects on the son are homosexuality and Don Juanism, and sometimes also impotence [though here the father complex also plays a part]. In homosexuality, the son's entire heterosexuality is tied to the mother in an unconscious form; in Don Juanism, he unconsciously seeks his mother in every woman he meets.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 162.]

The reason he likes both Sarah Jane and Gwen is because they either, remind him of his mother or are a version of his mother. And it also might be why he takes such offense to people not liking the characters because in his subconcious, we are attacking his own mother, he can;t see the difference between the character and his mother. And also, if you look at the Eve and the woman who plays sarah, they are both not very attractive and are very homely looking, and if you want to be really cruel, they do look a bit alike, with the hair cut, clothing and some of the facial features, not identical but there are similarities, they look motherly. Most people if you are going for a leading lady go for someone who is really attractive, so even if they can't act, they do look good but he didn't with them. He went for someone who look ordinary and are not really attractive instead, which does beg the question on, if he does have this, by choosing them, is he actually choosing people who look like or are similar to his own mother?

Now, this is my opinion and i have been doing a lot of psychology recently so i might be seeing into things that aren't there but it might explain some things. Or i am going mad, lol!

[jennelldhalrbj.livejournal.com]

I can't understand a lot of what she says. It isn't because she is Welsh, as someone rather rudely said on another Forum, as I have a sister married to a Welshman and a niece and nephew born in Wales and have visited there often and don't have any problems. It is because she mumbles and gabbles when she talks which is rather amateurish, in my opinion.

[lukita.livejournal.com]

For serious? I've never wanted to slap a TV character as much as I wanted to slap Gwen when she was doing her ranty thing about how she know what love is and the others doesn't. I was rooting for someone to slap her and tell her off.

widening her eyes and opening her mouth shows some sort of emotion

Sure it does, it's called mimicking a goldfish.

[likemycoffee.livejournal.com]

The other reason Gwack doesn't work is that is because there is no genuine chemistry between Jack and Gwen in canon. Yes, Jack flirts with her but he flirts with everyone, the chemistry feels manufactured and false.
In other fandoms you tend to find that the characters being slashed have genuine chemistry in canon, even though it is in a platonic way. That is what allows you to imagine that there might possibly be more to the relationship.
But, what really annoys me is that Gwack fans seems to believe that Gwack is canon. It is not canon. I read and write a lot of slash fics but i hold my hands up and say i know it's not canon, it's just my imagination. The fact that they believe themselves to be right is what i find most annoying about them.

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

I actually had a comment convo with another commenter. You might take a look at that as well.

[blucougar.livejournal.com]

I personally have no real issues with fic writers who ship Gwack, and bash on Ianto. I don't like their stories, and I won't read them, but I wouldn't deny them the right to write it. *cough*
It's no different to the fics that we post here on this site.

What I take exception to is the contingent out there that a) would like to see us denied the right to express our hatred of Gwen, and b)go that one step too far and bash on Gareth as an actor.

We've all expressed disappointment or disgust at Eve Myles recently over her comments in various interviews, but we draw the line at actually bashing on the actress. Others who feel the same about Ianto as we feel about Gwen don't seem to have the same level of self-control.

I have to agree, though. I have never seen such a blatant division in any other fandom as exists with Torchwood between the Janto shippers and the Gwackers. There are very few fans who are happy with either pairing - most of us seem to be dead-set on one side or the other.
I, for one, know that I could never, ever write a Gwack fic. Unless it was a Jack-nobbled-by-an-alien-virus-and-trapped-in-his-worst-nightmare scenario.
Hmm. Plot bunnies just started hopping....

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

As I said I can't begrudge them their fantasy; I've spent enough time on their side of the fence in different fandoms.

What does bother me is that they seem to feel that entitled to be right and damn anyone that disagrees.

Oh god no please don't write it, I like your stories...like reading them (still waiting for the Gwen-bash you thought might be in What Never Should Be)...unless it turns into Gwen bash then don't mind. :)

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

have to agree, though. I have never seen such a blatant division in any other fandom as exists with Torchwood between the Janto shippers and the Gwackers. There are very few fans who are happy with either pairing - most of us seem to be dead-set on one side or the other.


The only comparative fandom division I've come across has been the Luby versus Carby split in ER. (Fans of Luka/Abby and fans of Carter/Abby)
Of course as well as the Lubys and Carbys, there were also the Abby haters who felt the same way about her that most people on this comm feel about Gwen.
Worst thing about Luby/Carby wars was that over the course of the show, both ships were canon at one time, so each side claimed the 'one true pairing' label. On balance I think the Carby's were more annoying, especially in their insistence that every little thing was a 'sign' from TPTB that their pairing was going to be the end one. (seriously, a butterfly pattern on a bedspread was 'significant' because the characters had once discussed the 'butterfly flapping its wings and causing a hurricane' theory)

[rhianona]

To be honest, the comment you made regarding what "gwackers" wanted re: Rhys and Ianto isn't all that odd in comparison to other fandoms. I've seen something similar in SG-1 regarding slash fans of Jack/Daniel v. the het fans of Jack/Sam. I've noted a number of Jack/Daniel fics in which Sam is treated in a terribly fashion. I would rather the other ignore the canon implications of the Jack/Sam relationships (of which there are many) and just keep going with J/D than attempt to deal with it, since often it comes off very hurtful and very misogynistic.

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

I think in those cases it comes down to there are always haters.

[michele659.livejournal.com]

I've found it to be that way in the Queer As Folk fandom,and the show's been off the air for four years now. I understand that when it was still on the air it was much,much worse. There it wasn't slash vs.het,but Justin(canon pairing with Brian)vs.Michael (non canon pairing).
Michael has a lover on the show who becomes his husband,and still a lot of people refused to accept that Brian and Michael were not in love and weren't going to be (although Michael had been in love with Brian,and Brian accepted it- without addressing or taking action to stop it- for too long becsuse he needed the attention).It amazes me how people who like Michael with Brian will hate Justin,and I've heard some of those people bash the actor also. There was also a group called"Die,Ben" or something like that,which wanted Michael's husband to die (the character in the show was HIV+,so how tasteless was that to want?). Obviously I'm not saying if Ben were real people would want him dead. It's an interesting similarity between the Michael/Brian shippers and the Gwen and Jack shippers,though.
Also interesting that both these shows were created by RTD. I know that US QAF differed from the UK version midway during the first season,but still-the producers went with that emotionally repressed,can't say he loves you,afraid of being close character (Jack and Brian,though for different reasons) and the one who's kind of wondering where things are going (Justin and Ianto) and there's a person outside the relationship trying to get in.(Michael and Gwen) With just enough ambiguity in certain scenes to give fuel to the people who love the non canon pairing.
I've heard of other fandoms having serious hate,but I don't belong to them so I don't know the extent of it.
I know that forums in general are notorious for bringing out the worst in people. The anonymity alone is enough to bring out the lowest common denominator in a lot of people,and it definitely brings out the bullies.
I never really liked Gwen,but I don't wish the character dead. Just not involved with Jack,lol. Also,I'd like her more if we weren't always being told she's the heart of Torchwood,and if she and the people around her acknowledged she made mistakes.
Also,and I know people on here will either laugh or be horrified-if I were to ship her with a guy besides Rhys it would be Ianto.
Part of that is because I love Ianto so much I just can't see anyone not loving him,lol. Also,they seem to have chemistry-partially imo because of Gareth's acting,but I just see it there more between them than I do with her and Jack.
I don't get the "she completes Jack" or"she'd be faithful to him" remarks,as it's not really based on what we've seen on the show. Ianto is someone who's shown himself to be extremely loyal,and different enough from Jack so that you could make a case for him being someone who "would" complete Jack (although I don't really like that characterization of a relationship in any case).

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

Actually given what I remember from watching QAF I can see why Brain/Michal were shipped (not that I did, it was Justin for me).

What really surprise me with the B/M crowd is that they're slashers and at least some (going off what you said) were attacking the cannon. Maybe the nature of the show made them less willing to accept that they weren't cannon.

It's interesting about hearing some of the division in other fandoms.

Gwackers ignore major character attributes of both Jack and Gwen to "explain" why they belong together.

[lukita.livejournal.com]

Oh I know this one, I've participated in rationalize non-canon pairing before, complete with "she makes him sane" and crazy hatred for the other girl, but that was back when I was sixteen. It happens in a lot of fandoms, especially with het pairings, I don't know why but someone would start a list and the others would add to it. Seriously, if I have to guess, a lot of Gwackers are in their teens.

[suellen128.livejournal.com]

I actually have to agree to that one (not saying that there are older people are in this war from the Gwack's side) Most of the writers who start these "Wars" are of the younger generation (I feel weird when I say that, I'm just old enough to vote in UK)and most of the older more experienced writers don't really care that much, they have their views and can see the point of the other views but thats it.

[wingslapped.livejournal.com]

I can't say how the Trek fandom compared to Torchwood's because I only recently got involved with Torchwood.

I wrote Archer/T'Pol fanfiction and made vids. I also frequently posted on the biggest Trek forum out there. There were quite a few people who hated Trip or Archer. And some from each of those groups 'shipped for T'Pol with the guy they liked. I witnessed too many flame matches between the Archer/T'Pol and Trip/T'Pol fans. And on fanfiction.net people who hated A/T'P would post comments bashing the pairing on A/T'P fics. One person even took the time to look up my first name and other fans of the pairing's first names on another board and write a fic where we were all in an insane asylum. Thankfully fnafiction.net took it down when it was reported.

Another Trek fandom where I've seen nastiness is Voyager. Janeway/Chakotay vs. Chakotay/Seven of Nine fans. The Chakotay/7 fans take a lot of crap for their pairing from some J/C fans. The Chakotay/7 pairing showed up in 1 or 2 episodes before the end of the series, so it shocked and angered many fans. There is also 101 Ways to Kill a Borg fanfiction archive.

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

Well going off what you say look like we aren't the only fandom that's polarized.

[wanda1969.livejournal.com]

mmm. I have only just learned how to post so I am probably going to repeat many posters' comments...
Perhaps the problem with very young viewers is that, for them, everything is so immediate- get a boyfriend, change your mind in a week, get off with your co-workers.......
Hey, perhaps this is why some of them identify with Gwen??!! Please don't think that I am painting all teenagers with the same brush- not everyone is the same. Just some.....

[cyberdigi.livejournal.com]

Well I'm not sure you're specific examples really describe Gwen that much (personally). But I do think that the best way to describe Gwen is an only child, with the mentality of a teenager who never learned to how not to be an only child. I do agree though that Gwen can be very teenagerish which is why younger fans relate to her.

[illusion-hope.livejournal.com]

I think I'm just going to end up repeating what others said but... I'm pretty young... and I know a few people who are teenagers who also don't like Gwen. I found that Gwen to be... difficult. At first I tried to like her (I really really tried to) but I gave up during the first (FIRST!) episode. Usually, I would give the character a couple of episodes before I make my decision, but I found it rather difficult.
I've just been recently a slasher in t.v. shows (I was in the manga/anime fandom and still kind of am), and I got hooked to Torchwood.

But I was once reading this story and it shocked me how much they hated GDL. Now I'm a little ehh with Gwen (but I do enjoy reading the stories on this community! XD) and I'm a little mad at Eve Myles for her comments to the fans, but I would never actually *bash* her so througly as they were doing to GDL.
To be honest, it kind of the last straw.

:-) But sorry for the long rant. I do find Gwen rather childish... And sometimes I think RTD stressed a bit too much on Gwen being the heart of the team (which if find is contradictory at times). To me, she turned out to be the perfect Mary Sue (and I abhor Mary Sues!!). To me, I couldn't relate the Gwen at all (even if I had a nail in my head), but rather mostly Ianto and Tosh. (Even sometimes Owen and Jack...)

I wonder if RTD meant this to be viewed by a different audience then he got? I've been lurking (hehe... >.<) around, and found that most of the author's I've been reading found it easier to relate to the other characters, other than Gwen. ?? Or maybe I'm just imagining things...

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Or maybe I'm just imagining things...'
If you are imagining things than I must be too. I know that I have always related more with Ianto and Tosh (and even Owen and Jack )than Gwen. For me, it's because Gwen is just so unrealistic; she's lead a charmed life in that she has never lost a lover/someone she's cared about (Rhys did die in series 1 but he came back and not even as a zombie) and every other main character has, her affair with Owen has pretty much been forgotten about, in CoE while the rest of the main characters were either killed or broken she got to keep her husband and baby, every man except Ianto falls in love with her and probably the biggest thing she has NEVER had to suffer the consequences of her actions. I always wanted something to happen to her to give her a little depth as a character.