Pummeled, but still kicking...

[blucougar.livejournal.com]

This is a transcript of the... exchange that I've had with some individual/s over the last few days, who don't even have the proverbial balls to post using an LJ identity. Tell me, please, if I did anything wrong here other than being stupid enough to think that I might be able to have a reasonable discussion?

And yes, I have no doubt this will be read by the person who has been responding to my comments at that other site. He/She/They clearly have been following our activity closely enough that they could pick out a comment I made about Eve Myles in response to her interview where she made that lovely remark about not mollycoddling fans.

I still stand tall as a proud member of the AGA.
I don't like, and will never like the character of Gwen Cooper.
I appreciate the talent of Eve Myles in presenting a character that has affected me so great to the point of absolute loathing, despite my disappointment at her apparent attitude towards Ianto fans in general.
I will continue to indulge in Gwen-bashing, and I stand by my belief that I'm no misogynyst.
My friends, who know next to nothing about Torchwood but are fully aware of my involvement in this site, laughed hysterically when I told them that apparently I'm a misogynystic liar. 'Scuse me for valuing their opinions over those of someone who I will never meet face to face.




Smackdown of the Week


blucougar
2009-07-20 04:21 am UTC (link)
Re: 104.
The dictionary definition of misogyny is someone who hates all women. We at the AGA don't hate all women - just Gwen specifically. She's supposed to represent the 'human' perspective, which is pretty much an insult to humanity in general.

Just wanted to clarify. :)

Also, I don't agree with 108, because frankly, Jack could have had Gwen at any time if he'd actually wanted her. She threw herself at him enough, and made it pretty clear she would have ditched Rhys in a heartbeat for El Capitan.
I also disagree with with 109, mainly because I think it was a cheap out from the relationship, not so much pathetic. If Ianto really had to die, at least he died in Jack's arms.

I LOVE 110 - you nailed it perfectly, and thankyou for 103 & 111. Brilliant.
(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2009-07-20 04:33 pm UTC (link)
104 - The way many of you at AGA express your "feelings" toward Gwen is misogynistic. You can have misogynistic attitudes towards someone or something and not hate all women. You can also be a woman and be misogynistic, especially if you think that RTD can be homophobic despite being gay himself.

Disliking Gwen and talking about her characterization or how she's depicted onscreen? That's not misogyny. Disliking Gwen and calling her a bitch, a slut, a ho, and so on, and writing fic to "put her in her place", have characters humiliate her, and/or kill her in creative and violent ways? Hosting challenges where "dudes" in the Whoniverse or other fandoms bash her? That's misogyny.

Before you accuse me of being a Gwen apologist or something, guess what! I don't like Gwen either. I've wanted to grab her by the shoulders, shake her, and yell "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" on more than one occasion. Her character has always rubbed me the wrong way. COE included.
(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


blucougar
2009-07-20 07:02 pm UTC (link)
LOL, that's cool. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. :) Personally, I didn't care a toss about the character one way or the other during series one. It was only during series two that I really started to loathe her. Didn't mind her so much during COE... except for the whole "she gets to live and keep everything she loves while Ianto dies and Jack loses everything". Wanted to smack her one for having the nerve to beg Jack to stay on Earth for her, with Rhys standing right there within hearing distance!!!

And no - I was not going to accuse you of being a Gwen apologist. I did actually pay attention to everything else in this posting....
(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-07-21 05:03 am UTC (link)
The attacks on Gwen at that comm often use mysogynist language that is simply disgusting. Go ahead and say you're not misogynstic, lie all you want. That people go out of their way to be so spiteful and vicious, repeatedly, is sick. The fact that you're proud to be a member of such a place says something about you as a person, and none of it is good. Not that someone likes you care, I'm sure.
(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


blucougar
2009-07-21 06:07 am UTC (link)
No, I'm not ashamed to admit to being a member of the AGA, and you can make all the assumptions about me that you like from that. You don't know me, and I don't know you.
All I know is that yes, I might bash on a character. You call it misogyny - I call it stress relief. But, the other point is that I restrict my 'misogyny' to a fictional character, and if that bothers other people so greatly, then stay away from the AGA - just as we steer clear of the sites that bash on Ianto.
I would never attack real person in the way we treat the character of Gwen at the AGA, and I try hard not to be judgmental of others for their opinions.
Yes, I dislike Gwen vehemently, but I do respect Eve Myles as a talented, spirited and beautiful woman.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2009-07-21 07:53 am UTC (link)
Different anon.

Saying "I'm only a misogynist on the Internet, and only towards certain fictional characters" does not somehow make that behavior okay. Instead of trying to rationalize it or handwave it and mock our concerns elsewhere, maybe you should consider what the anons here have said. More than one person on this post has called you (the collective you of AGA) out on the unnecessarily cruel and nasty things you say and do. They're recognizing a pattern of behavior, not seeing things that are not actually there.

If you have that much hatred for a fictional character, maybe you should step away from fandom and the internet for a while. Get some perspective. It would do you some good.
(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-07-21 10:00 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I dislike Gwen vehemently, but I do respect Eve Myles as a talented, spirited and beautiful woman.

Except for the part where you don't.

http://community.livejournal.com/antigwenallies/120543.html?thread=962783#t962783
(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


blucougar
2009-07-21 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Oh, yeah. I'd been trying to move beyond that, but you reminded me all over again about her ill-considered remarks. Thanks for that.

I'm not asking for your pardon for my POV, because frankly, I won't be dictated to or made to feel guilty by someone who doesn't have the guts to do anything but post anonymously so that people can't respond to you directly. I was hoping to initiate a reasonable discussion, but you only seem to be interested in expressing your opinions rudely.
I know for a fact that the members at the AGA are willing to converse reasonably without lowering themselves to attack the person whose opinions vary from theirs. That's more than I can say for the nameless people who have been responding to my comments.

Ce la vie. I still believe that people are entitled to their own opinions. I'm moving on from this little dispute, now. I hope you can do the same, but I wonder.
(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2009-07-21 10:50 pm UTC (link)
Hang on, I'll be right back with a shovel so you can dig yourself into a deeper hole.

Comments

[thi13enthghost.livejournal.com]

That last comment totally made me head-desk.

They talk about us like we're the only hate-com there is, makes me wonder if ones in other fandoms get the same lables thrown at them.

Are we so evil for disliking a fictional character? Its not like we go over to the pro-Gwen coms and rant about how much she sucks. We keep it to ourselves.

[sinjinh1.livejournal.com]

Love how all of these people decided to respond to you anonymously. I know I don't post on here all that often. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever posted on here. I do know that Gwen has always been annoying and self important. I don't think that is being misogynstic. I think it's my interpretation of the character. The stuff I see on this site is not cruel and vicious. In fact, some of it is funny. I think they just don't like that they can't get everyone on board the Gwen bandwagon. No matter how hard RTD tries to shove her down our throats.

[mjmcca.livejournal.com]

Why are you bothering to even converse with them. If they can not be bothered to have the courage of their convictions to not post anonymously then they are not worthy of my time. And honestly I think this is an indication that the community needs to go to locked posting.

[blucougar.livejournal.com]

Why are you bothering to even converse with them

Believe me, I'm asking myself that very question. Don't know why I even bothered to try in the first place. Stupid of me to assume that most people are reasonable individuals.

I'm done with them. If I get any other comments, I'll be deleting them without reply.

[mjmcca.livejournal.com]

In general I think she's an OK actress. I saw today in an online article promoting COE here in America the interviewer call her a thespian... Ahhh no... an decent actress sure. A thespian...ha...

She is lucky to be in the UK where the gap in her teeth is considered charming. In the States she wouldnt get further than character actress without caps or major orthodontal work.


Reading the accolades her admirers give her you would think she was the next Elizabeth Taylor.

[sleepyheathen.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that if Gwen had been a man I would still be hating on the character just as vehemently indicates just how not based in misogyny my feelings toward Gwen are.
The fact that EM keeps being an RTD mouthpiece makes me lose respect for her, there's being politic, so's to not alienate your boss, and there's mindlessly buying into a buunch of bs.

[jsks.livejournal.com]

we at least have the courage to sign our names to what we believe. strange how they defend rtd against charges of homophobia becuase hey he is a gay man(who approved all the"queer" remarks after all) we complain about 1 woman in torchwood on a list that says on the tin antigwen and suddenly we are all selfhating misogynists.

[idamus.livejournal.com]

Hm, that made me laugh, sorry, but what a weird person, you make several valid points and then anonymous answers, apparently without READING what you said. Oh and for the record there are plenty of gay/lesbian homophobes out there, I don't think RTD is one them, but he certainly isn't bothered by people being so on screen.

[krillitanestorm.livejournal.com]

Well, It's sort of hard to be homophobic for RTD seeing that apparently he's gay himself.
And your right, this was hilarious to read. The annoymous responses are just pathetic on there part.

[jennelldhalrbj.livejournal.com]

I admit it--I hate Gwen and I don't think Eve is anything but a very ordinary actress and I did some acting as a kid so I am not totally ignorant on this subject. {A bit ignorant but not totally}.

Also, the fact that Gwen makes me want to give her a kick doesn't mean she is a great actress. I am quite capable of being maddened by both good and plain rotten acting performances.

[theromangeneral.livejournal.com]

Anytime someone hates something they tend to get dogpiled by those who luuuv it. Though I do find it amusing that, aside from them not having the gumption to sign their names to their posts (what, are we going to track them down and harass them on their own communities/journals?) they can't back up their arguments. I've noticed that Anti's (whether anti-Gwen, or anti-twilght for example) frequently have well thought out arguments for why they don't like a character/book/series/fan-fiction/whatever. And the most frequent response to someone stating their dislike for character/book/whatever always seems to be along the lines of "don't like, don't read/watch" or "if you don't like it, no need to tell anyone". Terribly sorry, but if I don't like something there is no universal rule preventing me from voicing my opinions, particularly in a forum stocked with like-minded folk.
Apologies for the post length, I shall return to lurking now.

[likemycoffee.livejournal.com]

The people who attack you, and indeed the rest of us for not liking Gwen's character are more often than not the same people who are out there actively engaging in Ianto bashing.
You are not a mysogynist just because you dislike Gwen.
In fact, most Gwen haters i've come across are female. Is it possible to be a female mysogynist?

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

Is it possible to be a female mysogynist?


Well considering that RTD has been accused of being a gay homophobe, I guess so!

[theromangeneral.livejournal.com]

It probably is possible, but as far as my understanding of the definition of mysogynist is (per www.thefreedictionary.com):
mi·sog·y·nist (m-sj-nst)
n. One who hates women.
adj. Of or characterized by a hatred of women.

I did not realise that simply hating one woman (who we pretty much all recognise that we would hate even if the same characteristics were applied to a man) was mysogyny.

[blucougar.livejournal.com]

Is it possible to be a female mysogynist?

I suppose so... but then, we'd hate ourselves, wouldn't we? And then it would translate into depression. *shakes head* The mind boggles, it really does.

[kikou2011.livejournal.com]

I'm a woman, I hate Gwen, and I'm not ashamed!
If she represents the women then I'm a man!
She just make us (women) appeared as lying-cheating-manipulative-baby girls who can assume their mistakes, among other things. Tosh was such a better model. BTW if you're a mysogynist you have to hate Tosh no? So I'm not, cause I love her (don't care if she and Owen are gone! why them and not Gwen? Oh yeah RTD!co...rd)
Au fait,(=BTW in french). It's "C'est la vie" (it's the life). I hate it when people hurt my language, so feel very very free to point, underlined and put in boldletter, all my mistakes.

[mrsmarit.livejournal.com]

I too am a woman and DESPISE Gwen. Me and my neice both don't see the damn appeal with practically every guy on the show wanting to get into her pants. I swear she must bathe in that pheremone that Owen was using in the first episode, there can't be any other reason.

My neice and I had a rule for watching Torchwood, any time we said something nasty about Gwen (which was about every time she opened her mouth) we had to say something good about Ianto. Needless to say thank god for subtitles as we missed alot of dialog beacuse we were to busy talking crap about Gwen while extolling the virtues of Ianto.

While there were parts of COE that I enjoyed with Gwen (when she was silent and shooting people) overall she is one of the most annoying and self righteous characters to ever be on TV.